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How strong is the Binder?

Stalker0

Legend
I may get a chance to play a binder soon (at 8th level) and I've never had any experience with them. Absolutely love the flavor, and the powers seem pretty good. Especially the vestige that lets me heal my allies at will!!! :eek:

So from your experience, how balanced is the class? Too strong, too weak, just right?
 

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Claudius Gaius

First Post
A lot depends on if the game master is willing to come up with additional vestiges. If you can use a few with complimentary abilities that suit the current situation, then a binder can be very strong. If there isn't much that fits, or if you guessed wrong and don't have the right feats, abilities, or time to trade out your vestiges, then you're going to have to get clever if you want to make much of a contribution.

Of course, if the game master looks at it, says "so why aren't there billions of vestiges from all over the multiverse out there?", and lets you start proposing more, then you're pretty much set for anything.
 


Stalker0 said:
Let's assume a straight out of the box binder, no extra vestiges.
I find the vestiges from other WotC sources are slightly more powerful than the ones in Tome of Magic.

However, those sources are few and far between. There's an 8th level vestige in Dragon Magic, which isn't much use to you, some Psionic vestiges and some "cityscape" vestiges on their website (somewhere ...)

There are also two in Dragon magazine.

If you are just using Tome of Magic, the binder is one of the weakest classes. However, if you keep up a sufficient air of unpredictability then (if my experiences are anything to go by) the other players and the DM won't realise this.

Its also a whole lot of fun to play.

The "heal at will" ability is only really of use outside combat, but the rest of the group will be delighted with it. (Expect the DM to be less than delighted ....) However, its not much fun for you - you are giving up some cool things you could be doing in order to help the rest of the group.

My personal favourite is Paimon, as that +4 to Dex fits in with my fast moving, lightly armoured but hard to hit character concept.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Could you explain why you think its weak? Basically I may have to sell this class to a DM and I want to know as much about it as possible. On initial look through it seems very nice, lots of at will abilities (or close to it). For example, there's one that lets me smite every combat. Then again, I do have a medium BAB and d8 hitpoints, so perhaps that is part of it.
 

Stalker0 said:
Could you explain why you think its weak? Basically I may have to sell this class to a DM and I want to know as much about it as possible. On initial look through it seems very nice, lots of at will abilities (or close to it). For example, there's one that lets me smite every combat. Then again, I do have a medium BAB and d8 hitpoints, so perhaps that is part of it.
As you say, medium BAB, and 1d8 hit points. Also only 2 skill points per level, although an interseting skill list.

The bit that annoys me is that you are only proficient with simple weapons and light armour. You could use your bonus feats to get extra armour proficiencies, but that makes them feel very unlike a bonus.

If you use your vestige abilities to improve your weapon and armour proficiencies, the relevent equipment becomes practically unuseable when you happen to be bound to different vestiges. It is particualrly frustrating once you start to ge magical weapons and armour. (My binder is now a tiefling, thanks to an extreme one-off "retraining" adventure, so I don't ahve the weapons problem.)

Unless you max out your charisma, the save DCs for your vestige abilities are laughable. If you do max out your charisma, then your combat ability suffers.

It is hard to do damage as a binder. For example, if you bind with Amon, then you can do 1d6 per level fire damage, but its a line of fire so is likely only to affect one target, and there is a reflex save to take half damage (beware evasion, and fire resistance is possibly the most common of all the energy immunities) - and you can only do it once every 5 rounds.

Unless you pick your targets carefully, at eighth level you are looking at doing 8d6/2 damage = 14 on average, for your "special" ability.

You are also at the mercy of the DM. The binder works best when you have a reasonable idea of what you are going up against so you can prepare. Naberius is wonderful against Allips, but that doesn't help if you didn't know you were going to be facing them.
 

VirgilCaine

First Post
amethal said:
The "heal at will" ability is only really of use outside combat, but the rest of the group will be delighted with it. (Expect the DM to be less than delighted ....) However, its not much fun for you - you are giving up some cool things you could be doing in order to help the rest of the group.

This will save you untold fortunes in healing spells. I'm playing a Druid in a campaign that had a Binder for a while (some 4 months or so, now) and that ability kept me from needing to heal anyone...almost ever (We had, IIRC Rogue, Barbarian/Fighter, Druid [me], a Bard ).

However, it is hard to actually do anything. Our Binder was actually a multiclassed Binder/Beguiler/some PrC that combined Binding and spells. And the DM (who is new, just to excuse this) never sent us up against anything with a brain that he could charm.
 


Pedestrian

Explorer
Xerxes, one of the characters in my ongoing Red Hand of Doom game, is a Binder, presently at tenth level. He's focused on being very good at Binding, and a few little bits here and there. The player's intention was to excel in a "jack-of-all-trades" angle.

In play, I've found the Binder to be effective and versatile. The player is not comfortable devising his own vestiges, so plays the Binder completely out of the box. As the game has progressed, he's drifted towards a battlefield controller role. For example, he combined Tenebrous and Otiax (I think. The Gateway Vestige, with wind-blasts) to great effect. Blink in, create Darkness, slam enemies with attacks.

I have changed up a few abilities. Turn Undead (granted by tenebrous, for Xerxes) deals positive energy damage to Undead, instead of turning them. Balam's gaze can be focused, doing half-Binder-level/d8 in damage, but then turns it off for four rounds. Makes it a bit more active, and interesting.

I'm gaming tomorrow, I'll see if I can coax the player to come here and comment on the Binder.
 

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