How to balance the divine casters?

[drnuncheon]

I think that swapping out spells on a one to one basis (assuming they are the same level) works well.

I think that if you don't put any more controls on it than that, you'll see people doing things like swapping helping hand (or similar less-useful, noncombat spells) out for spikes (or similar combat spells).

J

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Maybe it's just me, but I figure so long as clerics can only memorize a set number of spells each day, it really doesn't matter much if they can choose from a thousand different spells. They still have to make a choice each and every day - more spell choices just means more chances to chooses the "wrong" spell. Crafting wands and scribing scrolls will alleviate this only to a limited extent, due to creation costs and time.

Of course, if a particular spell seems broken, any GM should change or exclude it, as necessary.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Vapourise the cleric class.
Move all the cleric spells to the mage list.

Voila.

 

[S'mon]

I think that if you don't put any more controls on it than that, you'll see people doing things like swapping helping hand (or similar less-useful, noncombat spells) out for spikes (or similar combat spells).

J

As Tallarn's GM, I should explain that I make the Cleric consult me on every non-PHB spell he wants, and if I allow it (ie it's not overpowered) he has to swap out a _mutually agreed_ PHB spell for the deity-appropriate noncombat spell. Since Tallarn's PC is Cleric of Girru, whose symbol & weapon is a flaming battleaxe, the spell was clearly an appropriate one.

 

[Fenes 2]

I have one rule concenring such problems - I eyeball the final result, and deem it balanced or overpowered compared to the party the PC is played in, and the campaign in question. I don't care much about the origin of spells, only the result. If that means banning half the PHB spells in one case, so be it.

As an example, I had to seriously alter the cleric of the last player who wanted to enter my campaign, even if it was a strict PHB construction. The combination of certain spells, feats and stats was just too overpowered, especially compared to the melee PCs of the party. (Not to mention that I had a serious problem with a rasta-headed jamaican (sic!) cleric named "Mr. J. Jackson" (no kidding), worshipper of a god named "Ja", when the campaign is set in the FR's Mulhorand/Unther region with a regional, exclusive pantheon...) I am still not sure whether the fact that I made him choose an egyptian name and god or the fact that I altered his PC's stats until he was not outdamaging the melee fighters by 50% in a melee fight anymore drove him off after two sessions, but I can't say I really miss him.)

The point of that whole history is: Don't focus on the source of a spell, look at the result, and at possible combos, and do not hesitate to ban and alter spells, feats no matter their source etc. if you deem it neccessary.

 

[S'mon]

The point of that whole history is: Don't focus on the source of a spell, look at the result, and at possible combos, and do not hesitate to ban and alter spells, feats no matter their source etc. if you deem it neccessary.

I sort-of agree, I just nerfed a whole bunch of mostly-cleric spells, much to the dismay of my players () but I do think that as far as possible the players should be able to rely on what's in the PHB. So my rule is:

"What's in the PHB applies unless I say different, what's not in the PHB doesn't apply unless I say so."

The Sage's FAQ counts as 'not in PHB', BTW.

 

[Destil]

I sort-of agree, I just nerfed a whole bunch of mostly-cleric spells, much to the dismay of my players () but I do think that as far as possible the players should be able to rely on what's in the PHB. So my rule is:

"What's in the PHB applies unless I say different, what's not in the PHB doesn't apply unless I say so."

The Sage's FAQ counts as 'not in PHB', BTW.

I prefer "what's not in the PHB may need to be changes to keep it in line, so run it by me first and we won't have any problems "

 

[S'mon]

I prefer "what's not in the PHB may need to be changes to keep it in line, so run it by me first and we won't have any problems "

I try to be polite - just wanted to emphasise that it's ultimately my decision.

 

[Nightfall]

I pretty much side with Oni on this. Keep it Core and SL only. If he wants other spells, he has to ask. (Doesn't mean YOU can't access them if you want! ) But if it helps he can't use any of the cleric spells from BoVD in any case.

 

[Voadam]

Another option is to give him a set amount of spells he can learn each level from the cleric lists, maybe say his int in spells or spell levels, this way he can keep getting new spells as he goes up in levels as new sourcebooks come out. Each would still have to be approved by the DM before use in game.