D&D 4E How to build encounters in 4e (aka Only you can prevent Grindspace!)

[Victim]

One advantage to a longer day is that it allows for more learning and adjustment. With a lot of encounters you can run into the same sorts of enemies a few times to get the feel for them while still having other encounters for a change of pace. Putting too much space in between can ruin the learning curve, especially if the group goes a while between games.

 

[Vayden]

One advantage to a longer day is that it allows for more learning and adjustment. With a lot of encounters you can run into the same sorts of enemies a few times to get the feel for them while still having other encounters for a change of pace. Putting too much space in between can ruin the learning curve, especially if the group goes a while between games.

Nothing wrong with keeping the same general flavor of enemies throughout. I just finished running my players through a 4 level stretch that was 65% undead, 25% demons, and 10% goblins. I just gave them lots of extended rests in there.

One thing I've done some of in the past and I'll probably do more of in the future is disguised extended rests - ways to provide the party with an extended rest without ending the in-game "day". One way is the old mid-adventure level-up "Okay, nice job there guys. You're all level 7 - go ahead and re-set your hitpoints, dailies and all that while you level up"; another way is the "fountain of healing" or something like that.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

This is all excellent stuff.

By the way, it helps if the DM also plays as a PC once in a while, so he gets a different perspective.

How would you redesign encounters in Thunderspire then?
I'm thinking mostly about the Horned Helm part, where it's one small skirmish after the other.
I really don't like the whole setup of it. It's such a standard series of Orcs slowing the PC's down. I definitely want to shorten it by letting other monsters pour in from the noise, and change them into minions.

 

[Vayden]

This is all excellent stuff.

Thank you!

By the way, it helps if the DM also plays as a PC once in a while, so he gets a different perspective.

I completely agree. I'm lucky enough to be in a couple different groups (DMing two, playing in one at the moment), and being able to pick up ideas from watching other DMs is great. Sometimes you learn what to do, sometimes you learn what NOT to do, but it always helps.

How would you redesign encounters in Thunderspire then?
I'm thinking mostly about the Horned Helm part, where it's one small skirmish after the other.
I really don't like the whole setup of it. It's such a standard series of Orcs slowing the PC's down. I definitely want to shorten it by letting other monsters pour in from the noise, and change them into minions.

Hmm - I'm running Thunderspire right now for the 2nd group I DM, but it's a temp job - I'm basically doing it while the DM there re-charges his batteries, so I haven't been tweaking it that much. Breaking down the sections we've done so far:

Chamber of Eyes - I was disappointed in this generally, but didn't have much time to tweak it. I like applying your idea of minion-ing stuff up and opening up the whole area to one dynamic battlefield. Could be great if you can pull it off. Maybe change the layout up some - put the first couple of rooms in one section, then a long hall to the next couple of rooms, then collapse everything else into one big dynamic multi-room encounter - have the minions have ranged attacks and use hit and run tactics.

Horned Hold - this came off completely different from the way it's laid out when I ran them through it. They bluffed their way through the first room, used a well timed sleep spell and a bunch of lucky failed saves by me to drop the entire smithy room. Then I decided I wasn't really interested in running several duergar melees, so I had most of the duergar stomp off to lunch (since coup-de-gracing sleeping people hadn't alerted anyone, their guard was still down). They slipped around the back way and had a big melee with the guards of the slaves, at which point they were basically out of resources, so they grabbed the slaves and retreated. I used a skill challenge to determine whether or not they could beat the Duergar back to the Seven Pillared Hall. At that point, they were raring to rest up and go back to finish it off and loot up, but my logic was that the Duergar were fully alert at this point, so there was no way they could take the entire garrison at once. I ended up having Murkelmar and a hand-picked group of Duergar show up in the Seven-Pillared Hall and challenge the party to a duel, refereed by the Mages of Sauruun. Basically ended up winging the whole section.

Well of Demons - I love this whole thing exactly as is. Doesn't need a bit of tweaking - it's perfect. The only caveat is that you might need to reduce the hp of the carnage demons in the Hall of the Howling Pillars - it can turn into a real meat-grinder if you're not careful.

Tower of Mysteries - haven't done this yet - planning to run it after New Years. Stupid holidays interfering with my gaming.

 

[Animus]

I just wanted to chime in and say how full of awesome this thread is. My home group had three 4e games going until I dropped mine to run SWSE, but this thread has inspired me to run more 4e. This is what the game is all about!

 

[jedrious]

Don't forget that enemies can flee and surrender when appropriate.

Having players who will use the Intimidate rules in a non-abusive and story-advancing way goes a long way here.

You knwo my party always complains that the monsters fight tooth and nail to the bitter end, however, when I do have monsters try to escape or surrender they gleefully ignore the surrendering or blow every resouce they can on killing the runner

 

[Nail]

You knwo my party always complains that the monsters fight tooth and nail to the bitter end, however, when I do have monsters try to escape or surrender they gleefully ignore the surrendering or blow every resouce they can on killing the runner

I've run into this for every RPG I've played over the last 26 years.

Every.

Single.

One.


Bad guys that run away must irritate players somethin' fierce.

 

[Vayden]

You knwo my party always complains that the monsters fight tooth and nail to the bitter end, however, when I do have monsters try to escape or surrender they gleefully ignore the surrendering or blow every resouce they can on killing the runner

I've run into this for every RPG I've played over the last 26 years.

Every.

Single.

One.


Bad guys that run away must irritate players somethin' fierce.

I think that's because we GMs, as a tribe, have trained our players that any enemies who escape will return later with nasty reinforcements.

Same thing with surrendering too, to be honest - we seem to love using that as the moment to inject realism and force the players to deal with difficult moral questions - it's one of the reasons why one of my favorite things about 4e is that monsters don't have negative hp.

Either way, your more efficient way to end grindy combats is to just quietly change the hp totals of the remaining monsters behind your screen, or a simple hand-wave, for the precise reason you mentioned.

 

[chaotix42]

Top-notch thread! Everyone, consider your ideas straight up strip-mined!

Here's an idea of my own: my PCs are about to fight 3 bone mongrel dracoliches on a huge elevator made of petrified wood. When a dracolich touches down on the elevator it will shift & sway under their weight, unbalancing the PCs and sending them sliding toward the beast (ad hoc attack vs Ref). When one of the dracoliches takes off it'll cause a similar reaction, but instead the attack will knock PCs prone.

Eventually a few of the chains suspending the elevator will break, halting its ascension and turning the entire elevator into difficult terrain. As it heaves violently, PCs and monsters alike will be randomly slid (or flung!) toward the edges of the elevator, where a painful fall onto the elevator shaft's support beams awaits. If a dracolich falls over the edge, it'll cling desperately to the elevator before falling, damaging a section of support beam upon impact. If a dracolich flies down to a support beam the landing will similarly damage it. This will allow the PCs to attack the damaged section and send any dracolich standing on it crashing down through many more beams before finally suffering an explosive demise.

I think this should be enough to spice up an encounter with 3 elite brutes on a square-shaped map. The unbalanced elevator gives the dim dracoliches a form of control over their opponents, though one they'll not fully take advantage of. Once the fight is starting to lose momentum I'll snap a few chains and hopefully inject some more life into the encounter. Once the battle spills out onto the support beams the PCs can send off any remaining dracoliches with a bang!

 

[Vayden]

Top-notch thread! Everyone, consider your ideas straight up strip-mined!

Here's an idea of my own: my PCs are about to fight 3 bone mongrel dracoliches on a huge elevator made of petrified wood. When a dracolich touches down on the elevator it will shift & sway under their weight, unbalancing the PCs and sending them sliding toward the beast (ad hoc attack vs Ref). When one of the dracoliches takes off it'll cause a similar reaction, but instead the attack will knock PCs prone.

Eventually a few of the chains suspending the elevator will break, halting its ascension and turning the entire elevator into difficult terrain. As it heaves violently, PCs and monsters alike will be randomly slid (or flung!) toward the edges of the elevator, where a painful fall onto the elevator shaft's support beams awaits. If a dracolich falls over the edge, it'll cling desperately to the elevator before falling, damaging a section of support beam upon impact. If a dracolich flies down to a support beam the landing will similarly damage it. This will allow the PCs to attack the damaged section and send any dracolich standing on it crashing down through many more beams before finally suffering an explosive demise.

I think this should be enough to spice up an encounter with 3 elite brutes on a square-shaped map. The unbalanced elevator gives the dim dracoliches a form of control over their opponents, though one they'll not fully take advantage of. Once the fight is starting to lose momentum I'll snap a few chains and hopefully inject some more life into the encounter. Once the battle spills out onto the support beams the PCs can send off any remaining dracoliches with a bang!

Hah! Consider your own idea strip-mined in return. I'm sure I'll be able to find a way to use this somewhere. 2 ideas you should consider:

1) Whenever you introduce a new element (like the landing knocking people prone, for instance), be sure to explain the mechanics to the players so that they can understand what's happening and adapt their tactics accordingly. It can be very frustrating as a player to feel that you don't know the rules. What I usually do in situations like this is wait until I'm ready to pull of the new move (landing the dracolich in this case), then do it, then pause to explain the mechanic to everyone. This way everyone can experience the fun of the surprise (you especially ), but after that it's a known factor and you're not keeping people in the dark.

2) How do you plan to incorporate the risk of PCs falling? In 4th edition, with featherfall etc quite rare until mid-high paragon, falling can be extremely deadly, or even if it isn't deadly, can take a PC out of the fight for a while. While it adds a great element of risk, you need to be prepared for what happens if a PC plummets down the elevator shaft and know ahead of time how you're going to react - it can be fine to play the fall straight up, but just know going in that you're upping the deadliness factor quite a bit if you do so.