I think the best way to simulate the feel of spell duels by the rules, really, is with quickened attack spells and readied defenses. Fire off a quickened magic missile and ready to counterspell. Quickened Summon Monster 2 and ready a counterspell. These would really only work once you get to be high level though.
How to conduct an interesting mage duel?
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
Lord Pendragon
First Post
DanMcS said:Opposed rolls. Each round both wizards burn a spell slot and roll d20 + int modifier + spell level used. Win by 5+, you score a touch. If you burn the slot and declare it as a counterspell, you get double the bonus from it but can't score that round. The number of touches for victory is agreed to beforehand. The rest is all descriptionThe player can say he invoked a bolt of green lightning from the heavens; his enemy might summon a fiendish, smoldering tiger. Whichever wins, hits his opponent, or they might cancel out and just obliterate each other. The next round the player might turn himself into a snake-necked dragon for a round and try to bite his enemy, who uses his spell as a counterspell and teleports to the side just in the nick of time. Repeat.
I really like this idea. It's a good mechanic for the kind of mage-duel that I envision, namely the one between Egg-Shen and Lo-Pan in Big Trouble In Little China, with each wizard creating an astral warrior and having them go at it. I'd add that each eldritch warrior have hp (touches) equal to the level of the mage in question, so that a higher level mage has an advantage over a lower level one.
s/LaSH
First Post
The problem with D&D is it's not optimised for countering, and that's really the heart of a mage duel - finding quick and easy ways to nullify your opponent's powers before they nullify you.
However, there's a quick fix for that - limit the spells available in a duel. Each duelist has to conform to a certain list of spells (either agreed on the day before, or by a higher authority like a Guild), and is disqualified if they break the rules. By keeping this list short, you have the potential for counterspelling the opponent.
That's one option... another would be to introduce more counterspells (see the Dusk site for rules for some of these, done rather well). Both of these solutions stay fairly much within the rules.
A final option, of course, is to break out the Magic decks, but that's going to be well beyond the power level of all but epic characters so might require some 'splaining...
However, there's a quick fix for that - limit the spells available in a duel. Each duelist has to conform to a certain list of spells (either agreed on the day before, or by a higher authority like a Guild), and is disqualified if they break the rules. By keeping this list short, you have the potential for counterspelling the opponent.
That's one option... another would be to introduce more counterspells (see the Dusk site for rules for some of these, done rather well). Both of these solutions stay fairly much within the rules.
A final option, of course, is to break out the Magic decks, but that's going to be well beyond the power level of all but epic characters so might require some 'splaining...
RangerWickett
Legend
The duel begins, and you roll for inititiative. If the person who wins initiative chooses to start right away, you follow normal combat rules. But if the first person readies an action and chooses to wait for his opponent to make the first move, then his opponent also readies an action, things can slow down. Imagine gunslingers, waiting for the right moment to go.
Whenever it finally comes time to start the duel, the two mages do one of the following:
If you have add your Initiative modifier to this check. Whoever wins goes first.
During the duel you can ready actions just like in normal combat if you want to counter a spell, or if you have the Reactive Counterspell feat you can use that. Also, you can feint with Bluff to do the following things:
I would then suggest making a simple feat that gives +1 to Bluff and Sense Motive checks and makes it a class skill.
Spell Duelist
You are skilled at magical duels.
Prerequisite: Training from a spell duelist, ability to cast 1st level spells.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to skill checks with Bluff and Sense Motive. Bluff and Sense Motive are class skills for you.
Spellfeint
Your spellcasting is subtle and cunning.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Bluff 5+ ranks.
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to hide what spell you are casting as a free action, instead of a move action. You can attempt to attempt a feint to make an opponent waste a counterspell as a move action instead of a standard action. You can also attempt to make the spell you're casting seem to be a different spell as a move action instead of a standard action.
Whenever it finally comes time to start the duel, the two mages do one of the following:
- Make opposed bluff checks.
- One makes a bluff check opposed by a sense motive check.
- Make opposed sense motive checks.
If you have add your Initiative modifier to this check. Whoever wins goes first.
During the duel you can ready actions just like in normal combat if you want to counter a spell, or if you have the Reactive Counterspell feat you can use that. Also, you can feint with Bluff to do the following things:
- As a move action you can attempt to hide the spell you're casting. You make a Bluff check, and then the DC of the Spellcraft check to determine the spell you cast this turn is either the normal DC, or the result of your Bluff check, whichever is higher. If you have the Spellfeint feat, you can make this bluff as a free action whenever you cast a spell.
- As a standard action you can try to fake out your opponent and make him think you're casting a spell when you're actually not. This is a good way to get opponents to waste a counterspell. Make an Bluff check opposed by your opponent's Sense Motive check. If you win, your opponent's readied action goes off now, assuming he was readying an action to respond to you casting a spell. The drawback is that your opponent still has the higher initiative, so he can just try to counter you again next round. If you have the Spellfeint feat, though, you can make this Bluff as a move action instead of a standard action, which lets you both bluff and cast a spell in the same round.
- As a standard action you can make it look like you're casting a different spell than you actually are. Then whatever spell you cast the next turn will look like whatever you're trying to fake it as. This requires a Bluff check (DC 25 + spell level you're emulating). If you fail the Bluff check, you must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level of the actual spell) or your concentration is disrupted and you lose your spell. If you have the Spellfeint feat, though, you can make this Bluff as a move action instead of a standard action, which lets you both bluff and cast a spell in the same round.
I would then suggest making a simple feat that gives +1 to Bluff and Sense Motive checks and makes it a class skill.
Spell Duelist
You are skilled at magical duels.
Prerequisite: Training from a spell duelist, ability to cast 1st level spells.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to skill checks with Bluff and Sense Motive. Bluff and Sense Motive are class skills for you.
Spellfeint
Your spellcasting is subtle and cunning.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Bluff 5+ ranks.
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to hide what spell you are casting as a free action, instead of a move action. You can attempt to attempt a feint to make an opponent waste a counterspell as a move action instead of a standard action. You can also attempt to make the spell you're casting seem to be a different spell as a move action instead of a standard action.
schporto
First Post
Here's how I'm thinking.
First, limit the spells to a list. So no mega damage could occur. Or just make it so that the mages step into dueling arenas. These arenas allow the magicians to remain alive even if at -10 hp, and limit all damage from any magic to x% of total hps of participants.
Second, roll initiative. But it will come in in a minute.
Third, the two mages write down what they will do (spell to be cast, counterspell attempt).
Resolve as:
If both cast a spell, then first initiative goes first (unless the spells naturally counteract i.e. slow, haste)
If both counterspell then go to next round.
If one spells and the other counters then the countering has to roll according to spellcraft rules. Then may cast the appropriate spell to counter. Otherwise takes damage.
Repeat third step as needed.
I can't remember where I saw it but I think it was a cartoon where there was a mage duel that had the two mages constantly changing shapes to try and outdo each other. There could be some rules around that. Assuming both know polymorph, they can cast poly as many times as they want. Poly, get 1 attack, other guy polys gets one attack. But that would violate a buncha dnd magic rules.
-cpd
First, limit the spells to a list. So no mega damage could occur. Or just make it so that the mages step into dueling arenas. These arenas allow the magicians to remain alive even if at -10 hp, and limit all damage from any magic to x% of total hps of participants.
Second, roll initiative. But it will come in in a minute.
Third, the two mages write down what they will do (spell to be cast, counterspell attempt).
Resolve as:
If both cast a spell, then first initiative goes first (unless the spells naturally counteract i.e. slow, haste)
If both counterspell then go to next round.
If one spells and the other counters then the countering has to roll according to spellcraft rules. Then may cast the appropriate spell to counter. Otherwise takes damage.
Repeat third step as needed.
I can't remember where I saw it but I think it was a cartoon where there was a mage duel that had the two mages constantly changing shapes to try and outdo each other. There could be some rules around that. Assuming both know polymorph, they can cast poly as many times as they want. Poly, get 1 attack, other guy polys gets one attack. But that would violate a buncha dnd magic rules.
-cpd
ichabod
Legned
I like the idea of the opposed spellcraft rolls. On the topic of adding schools to it, you could do it like psionic combat. Each dueler picks a school secretly before the roll, and depending on the combination of schools picked, one of them may get a bonus to the spellcraft roll. If you pick your school of specialization, you get a bonus as well.
You could add in a few other things to. Roll initiative each round, and the winner gets a slight bonus. The loser can try a gambit, which would be double or nothing on the initiative bonus, based on an opposed check. Gambits could be feints (bluff vs. sense motive), obscure trick (opposed knowledge(arcana/religion)), personal style (opposed key abilities), or complex maneuver (opposed concentration).
The trick would be to add enough for your player's taste in complexity.
You could add in a few other things to. Roll initiative each round, and the winner gets a slight bonus. The loser can try a gambit, which would be double or nothing on the initiative bonus, based on an opposed check. Gambits could be feints (bluff vs. sense motive), obscure trick (opposed knowledge(arcana/religion)), personal style (opposed key abilities), or complex maneuver (opposed concentration).
The trick would be to add enough for your player's taste in complexity.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
You could always just create a list of specialised 'duelling' spells, all of zero level (so they're relatively easy and cheap to learn and cast).
Each duelling spell would negate or counter one or two other duelling spells (following school opposition or something), and each duelling spell would have negative effects on the targets ability to cast duelling spells (so eventually, without making them combat-worthy spells, one side would become unable to continue).
The abjuration duelling spell would probably be solely devoted to defense - it negates some number of duelling spells
The necromancy one probably steals a duelling spell slot from your opponent to use.
Evocation would probably directly blast spells away.
Conjuring would create something - a creature who tries to disrupt duelling spells from being cast.
Transformation might alter the duelling spells your opponent has.
Illusion would simply appear to be any one of the other duelling spells (but with a save to avoid the effect)
Divination would give you insight to which spell your opponent is going to cast next
Enchantment would ... umm...
Can anyone actually work out what the focus of enchantment is supposed to be? Maybe force your opponent to cast certain duelling spells for the next few rounds?
Each duelling spell would negate or counter one or two other duelling spells (following school opposition or something), and each duelling spell would have negative effects on the targets ability to cast duelling spells (so eventually, without making them combat-worthy spells, one side would become unable to continue).
The abjuration duelling spell would probably be solely devoted to defense - it negates some number of duelling spells
The necromancy one probably steals a duelling spell slot from your opponent to use.
Evocation would probably directly blast spells away.
Conjuring would create something - a creature who tries to disrupt duelling spells from being cast.
Transformation might alter the duelling spells your opponent has.
Illusion would simply appear to be any one of the other duelling spells (but with a save to avoid the effect)
Divination would give you insight to which spell your opponent is going to cast next
Enchantment would ... umm...
Can anyone actually work out what the focus of enchantment is supposed to be? Maybe force your opponent to cast certain duelling spells for the next few rounds?
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
I'd say go with relatively normal combat rules.
I wouldn't limit the selection of spells - I think that spell selection would be a big part of being a successful duelist. Although perhaps certain "schools" of duellists have different rules (limited spell selection, no magic items, etc).
I'd have them go into the arena with no spells active (rules could be set in stone, or could be determined on a per-duel basis). Quicken spell would become a very important feat, as soon as it could be gotten. You can either go for the big attack, or for defense, with Shield, Invisibilty, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, etc. Big area spells like Fireball might be considered outre'. New, previously unknown spells could be a big factor and would spur new research. Invokers would seem to have a built-in advantage, while Conjurers would probably not get into duels due to the length of casting times of Summon spells.
I like the idea of a Bluff/Sense Motive Rock-Paper-Scissors sort of gunfighter stand-off.
I wouldn't limit the selection of spells - I think that spell selection would be a big part of being a successful duelist. Although perhaps certain "schools" of duellists have different rules (limited spell selection, no magic items, etc).
I'd have them go into the arena with no spells active (rules could be set in stone, or could be determined on a per-duel basis). Quicken spell would become a very important feat, as soon as it could be gotten. You can either go for the big attack, or for defense, with Shield, Invisibilty, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, etc. Big area spells like Fireball might be considered outre'. New, previously unknown spells could be a big factor and would spur new research. Invokers would seem to have a built-in advantage, while Conjurers would probably not get into duels due to the length of casting times of Summon spells.
I like the idea of a Bluff/Sense Motive Rock-Paper-Scissors sort of gunfighter stand-off.
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