Pathfinder 1E How to deal with high AC PCs

[Friend of the Dork]

Hello folks.

I'm an experienced DM in D&D, and now also Pathfinder. However, I've noticed that in the latter, it's even easier to boost AC even at the lower levels than before.

Armor, especially medium (as well as full-plate) has become better, and Fighters are better at using it increasing their AC. There are also more feats that increases AC. Combined with a handful of magic items it isn't hard to get so high AC that you can't reliably hit yourself.

Now the main problem I have with this is balance - it becomes impossible for some enemies to hit on other than natural 20, and to compensate I need to add high-attack monsters just to challenge the high-AC character's a bit.

In my case I had to throw in Stone Golems just to challenge an 8th-level fighter. Should that really be necessary?

The point isn't just to challenge or nerf such characters - its hard for fighters to get high Will saves, so just a low-mid level spellcaster can ruin the day for such. The problem is I don't want to have spellcasters everywhere in my fairly low-fantasy campaign.

I also have a more military human focused campaign than usual, and I have a hard time making grunts/goons to be any sort of threat without auto-leveling them as if it was Oblivion.


So how can a bunch of normal soldiers - War or Fi lvl 1-3 actually be any threat at all to a group where the lowest AC is around 25? (not counting Wizard who is invisible etc.).

I expect my group to be able to handle several waves of such low-level enemies, but having them only hit on a natural 20 means I would need close to 100 of them just to be able to challenge one of the PCs - which breaks the suspension of disbelief for me and probably them as well. Not to mention boring as hell to actually play out.

Any tips, or suggestions for major gameplay changes?

 

[Ahnehnois]

High-dex characters can be countered with surprise/feinting. Heavily armored characters are tougher.

That being said, there are a variety of circumstances that can improve the situation. Armor doesn't affect CMD; often disarming the character's shield or tripping them can be a worthwhile gamble. Flanking and buff spells swing the numbers in the offense's favor.

A heavily armored character may still be hard to hit. Depending on the tactical situation, retreat may be wise. If the fighter is heavily armored, he won't catch you. Come back when he's taken off that armor to sleep.

And, of course, if you can't hit a character's AC, the easiest thing to do is target their saving throws.

That being said:

So how can a bunch of normal soldiers - War or Fi lvl 1-3 actually be any threat at all to a group where the lowest AC is around 25? (not counting Wizard who is invisible etc.).

They really shouldn't be. That's not really how D&D math plays out. If it's a large group, maybe you can try mob rules (from the 3.5 DMGII; I don't know if PF has an equivalent).

 

[Friend of the Dork]

High-dex characters can be countered with surprise/feinting. Heavily armored characters are tougher.

That being said, there are a variety of circumstances that can improve the situation. Armor doesn't affect CMD; often disarming the character's shield or tripping them can be a worthwhile gamble. Flanking and buff spells swing the numbers in the offense's favor.

A heavily armored character may still be hard to hit. Depending on the tactical situation, retreat may be wise. If the fighter is heavily armored, he won't catch you. Come back when he's taken off that armor to sleep.

And, of course, if you can't hit a character's AC, the easiest thing to do is target their saving throws.

That being said:
They really shouldn't be. That's not really how D&D math plays out. If it's a large group, maybe you can try mob rules (from the 3.5 DMGII; I don't know if PF has an equivalent).

Yeah. In my case I have a character that has both. Surprise works to some degree, but the magical breasplate and shield still gives an impressive flat-footed AC.

CMD is not affected by armor, but it is affected by almost everything else, including the actual Base Attack Bonus, which is at this level about the same as a Full-Plate, and it is also modified by Strength.

I did test a compromise: I made 7th level warriors with good attack bonus, but removed their "excess" hit points. It worked fairly well, they were (with flanking) able to hit the high-AC character, and deal some good damage too. The problem was, one of these nearly one-shotted the party's Rogue on a critical hit.

Mobs work, but takes alot of people in it. I have considered making military units based on the mob rules, with fewer members, better weapons, and better tactics.

In any case normal "security", city guards, and patrols are just laughable. I don't mind the AC system, but at the extremes it just doesn't work. It's not so great problem as long as you just use individual create CR = APL (+/- 2), but numbers really does little in this game by themselves. 5% hit chance is just too low.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, it doesn't matter.

For every two or three encounters where the high AC PC hardly gets touched, there will be one encounter where the DM seems to roll an 18 or higher against that PC often.

I know because I have run two high AC PCs in the last few years (one of them, 5 higher AC than the rest of the PCs) and both of them have gotten smoked quite often by the DM (where the DM makes his rolls out in the open). Sure, many encounters, the high AC PC will breeze through. That doesn't mean that his ally lower AC PCs will breeze through, nor that s/he is impossible to hit. It will happen.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Actually, it doesn't matter.

For every two or three encounters where the high AC PC hardly gets touched, there will be one encounter where the DM seems to roll an 18 or higher against that PC often.

I know because I have run two high AC PCs in the last few years (one of them, 5 higher AC than the rest of the PCs) and both of them have gotten smoked quite often by the DM (where the DM makes his rolls out in the open). Sure, many encounters, the high AC PC will breeze through. That doesn't mean that his ally lower AC PCs will breeze through, nor that s/he is impossible to hit. It will happen.

18? You know how long ago I actually hit this PC on an 18? That wouldn't be a problem, as you say these occurrs fairly frequently. No, I'm talking AC 34+ against enemies with maybe +10 to hit.

The only enemy so far who has reliably hit him is the golem, who needed a 12+ - that was an exiting combat, even tho more than half his attacks missed.

 

[KarinsDad]

18? You know how long ago I actually hit this PC on an 18? That wouldn't be a problem, as you say these occurrs fairly frequently. No, I'm talking AC 34+ against enemies with maybe +10 to hit.

The only enemy so far who has reliably hit him is the golem, who needed a 12+ - that was an exiting combat, even tho more than half his attacks missed.

As DM, don't you control the magic items of the group?

As DM, don't you control the monsters that they face?

If the PC has magic that gives him such a high AC, take it away.

If the monsters cannot hit him, give them ways to do so (bonuses and such for a variety of reasons).

You are a DM. If the lowest AC is 25 and the highest is 34, give the monsters +17 or so to hit once in a while. Nothing stops you from doing that.

It's your game. Take control of it.

 

[RangerWickett]

Ghosts. They touch or possess through armor.

Ghost monks. They punch through armor.

Tentacle monsters that grapple.

Wizards that target their Will save, or grease the floor so the heavy armor just makes them fall on their clumsy asses.

Or use tactics that work in real life. A knight has full plate armor? Send in eight men to gang up and grapple him. Drag him to the ground, and one person slides a knife through the visor slit. 1st level warriors, attack bonus of +5 (1 base, 3 strength, 1 expertise), with 7 aid anothers equals +19.

Guns. Make touch attacks within 40 feet. Give those eight men pistols and see if the PC is so invincible.

Difficult terrain and archers. How well does the guy in plate armor climb up muddy slopes?

Put the party on a boat. Have it sink.

Bebiliths destroy armor.

Rust monsters . . . are Wizards of the Coast product identity. DON'T YOU DARE USE THEM!!!!

 

[Stormonu]

As RangerWickett stated, touch attacks (including grapples) and area effects will probably be your best bet to even the playing field.

I wouldn't use this strategy all the time; the PCs should feel they are getting some benefit from their choices, but they should also come to realize they don't want to put all their eggs in one basket.

 

[am181d]

I'll also suggest the Injustice League method of monster combat:

When you want to challenge a group of heroes of unequal power, put them up against a range of villains/monsters of unequal power. Like will tend to target like at first (the big bruiser hero will head straight for the big bruiser baddie, the fast hero will chase after the fast baddie, etc.) and as the fight wears on, they may start switching up or ganging up on opponents.

Can't be used all the time, but I find this is generally effective when employed selectively.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Two words: Tucker's Kobolds!!!