How to describe Strider's combat on Weathertop

[Shallown]

Okay how about the Nazgul have 4 hit die and only 30 hit points.

Doesn't sound like a kick butt undead until youtake into account their immunites.

You could make a list of whatthey are vulnerable from. Think a golumns immunity to most magic with a few things actually hurting them.

DR 100/- vulnerable to certain weapons... Sorry not an expert on tolkien but I am sure he had a class of weapons that would hurt.

They scare the crap out of most everything below certain HD so no fear from the common man burning them with the one energy type that does normal damage.

Now given that I would be 5 foot stepping back when a person not afraid starts swining a torch. That 1-6 points of damage I don't heal scares me, when nothing else will.

But That's all made up bs to explain a movie or book scene. Also the reason Gm's have it tough creatively. we don't control all the marbles in a game, the joy and curse of running a game.

 

[Uller]

Even Sauron was fearful when Aragorn revealed his existence in the palantir.

Shhh! Your giving away spoilers!

One of the things I always thought was cool about Middle Earth was that many of the really powerful heroes and villians seemed to exist at least partially in a sort of parallel plane. Frodo seems to get a glimpse of this plane when he puts on the ring and when he is under the effects of the Morgul knife...

Elves and those with elven blood and good Mayar (sp?) shine with a white light. Evil beings seem to absorb the light. In D&D terms, these creatures all seem to be somewhat celestial or infernal...Probably the Witch-King didn't quite know what he was looking at when he first encountered Aragorn...only that it was something powerful and new to him (kind of like when Quigon encountered Darth Maul for the first time...was it a Sith? A renegade Jedi? Something entirely new? He didn't know. Even Yoda was not really sure at first).

In such a case, caution is definately the better part of valor...

 

[Wicht]

One problem here is trying to discuss the events of the book and the events of the movie as if they were the same, which is far from the case. The scenario I described earlier is how it happened in the movie (though I think I would change the suprise round to a successful intimidate on second thought) but the events of the book are very different and IMO more plausible.

First off Aragorn, has no sword (he carries only a broken blade). He chases the wraiths off with two flaming brands. He explains to the hobbits that the wraiths fear fire. They certainly are not afraid of swords. Frodo stabs a wraith in the foot and it destroys the sword. The name of Elbereth which he cried had more effect on them.

Second of all the wraiths are weaker on Weathertop for two reasons. One, they are not all there. They seem to have greater strength in numbers. When they battled Gandalf on weathertop I believe they were all present. But an elf stood against two or three of them at a time. Furthermore, they have been weakened from former glory by the loss of the one ring. It is explained the if the ring is returned to Sauron they will be more powerful again. They are essentially disembodied, much as their master is.

The primary weapon of the wraiths is portrayed in the books as being fear. In return of the king, when the Lord of the Nazgul rides into battle, it is the fear he brings upon the enemy that is his biggest power. Swords they carry but they do not often use them, nor do they need to use them.

Thus when they attacked Frodo, Frodo momentarily hurt them by calling the name of Elbereth and then a very powerful person, in the form of Aragorn, rushes at them with fire. They decide it is easier to retreat and then hunt the hobbit as he dies. All they have to do is keep him out of Rivendell and he is theirs. To this end the five on weathertop withdraw and the four elsewhere stage an ambush by the fords of Rivendell. When all nine are together again at the fords they feel strong enough to rush the dying Frodo, they almost turn away from the water when the torrent is unleashed but Aragorn and Glorfindel, weilding fire again, chase them into the water. They are not killed but they lose their shape and thus are powerless until reclothed. (I might also postulate that their power is stronger the closer they are to Sauron)

 

[shouit]

Another question related to Strider is what about the sword. In the books they reforge the sword before he left the elven lands, but in the movies, they didnt do that. What gives? Does anyone know?

 

[Desdichado]

The only real quibble I'd have, Wicht, with your excellent analysis, is that the Witch-king was very powerful both as the ruler of Angmar and later of Minas Morgul, all while Sauron did not have the one ring.

Although Tolkien mentions the deal with the word Elbereth, I've never seen that it actually had any effect. I think Aragorn was making a point of how ineffectual the sword was rather than that the word Elbereth was actually useful in repelling Ringwraiths.

And while I can see the value of patience, they also had to realise that the closer they got to Rivendell, the worse their chances were going to get to just grab Frodo. They are almost a comedy of errors and missed opportunities in the entire Book I section of FotR. If Tolkien hadn't written them to be pretty spooky, their effect would have been completely lost.

 

[Wicht]

The only real quibble I'd have, Wicht, with your excellent analysis, is that the Witch-king was very powerful both as the ruler of Angmar and later of Minas Morgul, all while Sauron did not have the one ring.

Maybe his power waned then the further he traveled from his tower.

And I won't quibble over the failed strategy, though I think Tolkien, via Gandalf, tries to paint the picture that the witch-king gambled and almost won.

As for their missed opportunities, they missed out in the shire, only because they were a little too late and they missed out in Bree only because Strider interfered. And I think too that there is the possibility in the mind of the author that the ring-wraiths, like everyone else in middle-earth except for Gandalf, underestimated the stamina and ingenuity of the hobbits.

 

[Cedric]

It seems pretty reasonable to me that this is a high level ability of his Ranger Prestige Class (he's obviously "not" the typical Ranger).

Cedric

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

As for their missed opportunities, they missed out in the shire, only because they were a little too late and they missed out in Bree only because Strider interfered. And I think too that there is the possibility in the mind of the author that the ring-wraiths, like everyone else in middle-earth except for Gandalf, underestimated the stamina and ingenuity of the hobbits.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Having gravely injured Frodo, they thought they had won. Any human would have sucuumb to the the morgul blade long before reaching Rivendell, obviously this hobbit would, too.

If completely engulfed in fire, a ringwraith risks dissipating and then needing to crawl back to Mordor to reform. Better to wait for the death of the ringbearer and take the risk then.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I think Aragorn was making a point of how ineffectual the sword was rather than that the word Elbereth was actually useful in repelling Ringwraiths.

Yeah, his sword probably would have been even worse then ineffectual. If he had used it, even broken, it would have been destroyed on contact with Witch-king (and maybe even the other Nazgul), and Aragorn may even have been subjected to the Black Breath (a coma, essentially, caused by close proxinity to the Witch-king - for those who don't know).

Uller - thanks for the good words, but I know there are several people on these boards who are much more conversant with the books.

I'll try to remember about not revealing spoilers!

 

[Desdichado]

I thought spoilers would be a moot point when discussing the books with this group. And those aren't necessarily spoilers for the movie anyway. After all, we already know that Arwen plays another prominent role in The Two Towers movie, and "The Scouring of the Shire" is been completely excised.