How to describe Strider's combat on Weathertop

[Tewligan]

Pfft- how would they make smores, then?

FD

They can't. That's what makes them so angry.

 

[Uller]

I thought spoilers would be a moot point when discussing the books with this group. And those aren't necessarily spoilers for the movie anyway. After all, we already know that Arwen plays another prominent role in The Two Towers movie, and "The Scouring of the Shire" is been completely excised.

***SPOILERS*****




Some have said they hadn't read the books, so I've been trying to avoid mentioning "future" events...

The palantir has already played a large role in FotR...I can only assume that Jackson will continue to use it since it plays a very large role in The Two Towers.

I was mostly joking about the spoiler thing though...I'd guess 85% of us have read the books...

 

[muhcashin]

yeah...yeah...yeah

I probably sound like a ...

But LOTR is a movie, not D&D, so quit trying to compare apples and oranges! You'll notice if you made movie that actually followed the rules, it would suck. The characters would have to be level 20th to actually do anything.

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Shhh! Your giving away spoilers!

One of the things I always thought was cool about Middle Earth was that many of the really powerful heroes and villians seemed to exist at least partially in a sort of parallel plane. Frodo seems to get a glimpse of this plane when he puts on the ring and when he is under the effects of the Morgul knife...

Elves and those with elven blood and good Mayar (sp?) shine with a white light. Evil beings seem to absorb the light. In D&D terms, these creatures all seem to be somewhat celestial or infernal...Probably the Witch-King didn't quite know what he was looking at when he first encountered Aragorn...only that it was something powerful and new to him (kind of like when Quigon encountered Darth Maul for the first time...was it a Sith? A renegade Jedi? Something entirely new? He didn't know. Even Yoda was not really sure at first).

In such a case, caution is definately the better part of valor...

One of the things I found most impressive about Jackson's adaptation of LotR was the use of the "Other Realm". When Frodo wears the ring and when he is close to becomming a wraith, he sees into this "Other Realm". In this realm mere mortals are just faint shadows (e.g. the patrons at teh Prancing Pony), powerfull creatures of evil are dark, horrible figures (e.g. the Nazgul on Amon Sul) and powerful creatures of good are shining creatures of light dressed in fine clothes, no matter what their actual garb (e.g. Arwen in the movie, Glorfindle in the book).

What was quite subtly brilliant in the movie was that when Frodo dons the ring during the attack on Weathertop and sees into the Other Realm. Aragorn appears exactly as he does in the mortal realm . This is a wonderful way of conveying teh special nature of the dunedain, not divinde creatures like elves or maia, yet not magically impotent like normal humans.

Also, by representing them as ordinary humans even in the idealised "Other Realm" it demonstrates the Numenorians' potential for either good (the Dunedain) ro evil (the Black Numenoreans).

My take on the battle, Aragorn turns up and appears fully vissable to them, carrying fire. He's not a great shining light like Gandalf or Glorfindle (or Arwen) would be and he's not an insignificant shadow (like a human would be). They haven't seen anything like this since the fall of Arnor or the death of the last King of Gondor. This trows them into momentary disarray. Then, on top of that, this mystery guy starts demonstrating serious combat skills and no sign of fear. "To Hell with this," they say, "we've already mortally wounded the halfling, let's get out of here."

 

[WizarDru]

Another question related to Strider is what about the sword. In the books they reforge the sword before he left the elven lands, but in the movies, they didnt do that. What gives? Does anyone know?

Media decisions. In the books, we learn about the sword, but in the movie, it would look silly, IMHO. Screen time is valuable, and having to break the flow of the race from Bree and the battle on weathertop for some exposition about the sword of Isildur to counteract the fact that this mighty hero is running around would have broken the tension and just not looked good on the screen.


BTW, let's not sell Glorfindel short. He's not just some elf, he's a terrible and mighty elf noble whose full glamour is terrible to behold. A normal elf against a single ringwraith would almost certainly go poorly for the elf. (And for the record, I don't have a problem with Arwen taking his admitedly very short role in the movie...I thought it worked well, and removed one more character from a very crowded stage).

Further, trying to cast LOTR in D&D terms is an interesting mental exercise, but ultimately pointless. The LOTR world doesn't match D&D (try balancing a Tolkien elf to a human, for example). The good Colonel worked on a d20 LOTR project, and can speak better to this than I can, but the point is that many things operate differently in LOTR than in D&D 3E.

Lastly, remember that you're comparing the single most powerful beings of Middle-Earth against each other. The Nazgul can slaughter normal Commoner 1s and Warrior 1s with abandon...and most of the world is populated with those. Pointing out that a Ranger 20/Numenorean King5 can hold them off seems a tad silly.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Another question related to Strider is what about the sword. In the books they reforge the sword before he left the elven lands, but in the movies, they didnt do that. What gives? Does anyone know?

My guess is that they wanted to make the reforging of the sword more dramatic. Or, put another way, they didn't want to distract the viewer with even more Rivendell plot points. Think about it, in Rivendell:

Frodo recovers
Frodo meets Bilbo
Bilbo covets the Ring
The power of the Ring is revealed
The Council of Elrond (and introduction of Gimli and Legolas)
Gandalf tells of Saruman
Elrond tells of the Ring
Gimli tells of Moria and Erebor
Legolas tells of Gollum and Mirkwood
Boromir tells of Gondor and the reawakening of Mt. Doom
Foreshadowing of the Fall of Boromir
Frodo decides to become the Ring bearer
The Hobbits decide to go with him
Aragorn and Arwen romance
Oh... and Isildur's sword is reforged and given to his heir

It's too much. So they cut the thing with the sword.

Besides making Rivendell slightly less plot heavy, I suspect the main reason for cutting the reforging of the sword was to give them an excuse to re-introduce Arwen later in the movies (probably in Return of the King). I mean, *someone* has to bring Aragorn his new sword. Right?

Aside: that task would be one of those infamous "Fedex" quests if Arwen was a PC in a computer game RPG. "Here, take this magic sword through these dangerous lands and deliver it to this powerful NPC."

-Z

 

[tburdett]

Close, but not quite.

One problem here is trying to discuss the events of the book and the events of the movie as if they were the same, which is far from the case. The scenario I described earlier is how it happened in the movie (though I think I would change the suprise round to a successful intimidate on second thought) but the events of the book are very different and IMO more plausible.

First off Aragorn, has no sword (he carries only a broken blade). He chases the wraiths off with two flaming brands. He explains to the hobbits that the wraiths fear fire. They certainly are not afraid of swords. Frodo stabs a wraith in the foot and it destroys the sword. The name of Elbereth which he cried had more effect on them.

Second of all the wraiths are weaker on Weathertop for two reasons. One, they are not all there. They seem to have greater strength in numbers. When they battled Gandalf on weathertop I believe they were all present. But an elf stood against two or three of them at a time. Furthermore, they have been weakened from former glory by the loss of the one ring. It is explained the if the ring is returned to Sauron they will be more powerful again. They are essentially disembodied, much as their master is.

The primary weapon of the wraiths is portrayed in the books as being fear. In return of the king, when the Lord of the Nazgul rides into battle, it is the fear he brings upon the enemy that is his biggest power. Swords they carry but they do not often use them, nor do they need to use them.

Thus when they attacked Frodo, Frodo momentarily hurt them by calling the name of Elbereth and then a very powerful person, in the form of Aragorn, rushes at them with fire. They decide it is easier to retreat and then hunt the hobbit as he dies. All they have to do is keep him out of Rivendell and he is theirs. To this end the five on weathertop withdraw and the four elsewhere stage an ambush by the fords of Rivendell. When all nine are together again at the fords they feel strong enough to rush the dying Frodo, they almost turn away from the water when the torrent is unleashed but Aragorn and Glorfindel, weilding fire again, chase them into the water. They are not killed but they lose their shape and thus are powerless until reclothed. (I might also postulate that their power is stronger the closer they are to Sauron)

They didn't lose their shape, they lost their mounts. The horses were trained to bear them and died in the river. They had to return to Sauron to retrieve new mounts, as normal horses would not bear them. The fear effect is a two-edged sword in that regard.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Further, trying to cast LOTR in D&D terms is an interesting mental exercise, but ultimately pointless. The LOTR world doesn't match D&D (try balancing a Tolkien elf to a human, for example). The good Colonel worked on a d20 LOTR project, and can speak better to this than I can, but the point is that many things operate differently in LOTR than in D&D 3E.

It really is a matter of perception. I don't think any game could balance Noldor and, say, Hobbits, adequately. That is, no matter what system you use, some beings are just going to be more powerful from the start. So it's not really about the game system, in that regard.

Magic...I'm a firm believer in the concept that it's in how you describe it, and in spell lists. The spell list for the Decipher game we've seen has a lot of spell names that seem to evoke 3e counterparts. That list also seems to jibe with many spell lists proposed for a d20 ME conversion. I'd say that if one were so inclined, one could go through the d20 spells and rework some aspects (maybe make most of them require a verbal, singing component, for example). Adding in a fatigue element may not be all that necessary - you could look at the limited number of spell slots a caster has as also gauging how fatigued a spellcaster is. Same mechanic, slightly different way of looking at it. Use a system akin to what was found in the Wheel of Time RPG, or simply fold D&D spells into the Psionics system. The point is, the game mechanics of d20 can handle LotR magic; I think the problem lies in people's perceptions of what D&D magic is.

Overall, I don't think LotR presents a massive problem for a d20 conversion. d20 has been used for a wide variety of settings so far, and a conversion of LotR doesn't require anything more radical to be done to the system than what has been done in Call of Cthulhu d20, Dragonstar, or one of the Polyhedron minigames.

I'm encouraged by what Decipher has been posting. The game looks like it could well be a good alternative for someone who simply can't countenance a d20 version of LotR. It also looks like it could be a very valuable resource for those wanting to do a d20 conversion.

But hey! The d20 Middle Earth conversion site is still around. We could always use contributions! The link is in my sig.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Further, trying to cast LOTR in D&D terms is an interesting mental exercise, but ultimately pointless. The LOTR world doesn't match D&D (try balancing a Tolkien elf to a human, for example). The good Colonel worked on a d20 LOTR project, and can speak better to this than I can, but the point is that many things operate differently in LOTR than in D&D 3E.

The point of comparing was that LotR is the premiere fantasy movie of the last year (if not all time) and that the combat moves seen can inspire better play. Sure I'm interested in the reasons where Strider/Aragorn is better than a normal man, as well as what levels/hit dice the various participants have . . . but I was also interested in putting the physical aspects of the fight into game terms i.e. he jumps in with surprise bull rushing the first Ringwraith etc. Ultimately the more understanding of cinematic combats I have the better they may be translasted into my game.

For information I've read the book once and seen the movie twice so am not an expert but an interested amateur.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

ColonelH, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I love the stuff that's been done for d20 LotR. I'm also very impressed/interested in the Decipher stuff and imagine I'll be buying that book. Some of the stuff has already inspired me to introduce ancester feats for my normal game where the characters are descended from legendary bloodlines of the past and can take higher level feats later that can do lots of cool stuff.