How to describe Strider's combat on Weathertop

[Sulimo]

Elrond's sons Elladan and Elrohir went about the wilderness on errantry, fighting evil where it could be found. I figure Glorfindel did the same.

Yeah. I was under the impression that those three were to some degree or other working with the Rangers patrolling what was left of Arnor keeping places like the Shire relatively safe.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

If the fellowships failed, only fleeing to the gray havens would save Middle Earth. Even if the Ring was kept for Sauron, it was presumed that Sauron would overrun Middle Earth unless the ring was either destroied or used against him. (see the discussion on giving the ring to Bombadill while in Rivendell).

And if Minas Tirith fell, nothing would have stopped Sauron from conquering the rest of Mordor. But the provinces still didn't send more than token forces.

While I have no doubt that Glorfindel was a great asset to Rivendel, he wasn't "too good to send". Gandalf was certainly more useful.)

OK. So why wasn't he sent? And Gandalf wasn't part of the Rivendell community to send or not send. He went wherever he wanted. Glorfindel seemed to be strongly tied to Rivendell, and did things at the bidding of Elrond.

What do you think Gandalf must have looked like. After Kaza Dum, he actually shone like a bacon in the mundane world..)

Who knows what he would have looked like? He was a spirit cloaked in the flesh of Man. That's an important point. The Istari were sent in the flesh of Men for a reason. Noldor Elves were a much different type of being.

This is why the party was smal, and why Gandalf avoided usinghi power... to avoid attracting attention.

Exactly. And an Elven lord from the days of old would attract even more attention.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I guess I don't understand what you're saying.

Our goal is to have the typical Noldor in the game world be far more powerful than the typical Hobbit or Man in the game world. We don't have to boost the racial stats (as D&D handles racial stats) for a Noldor elf to achieve that.

If all the Noldor elves in the game world are high-level, it doesn't matter that the racial mechanics give no special bonuses. Thus, mechanically, the race is balanced (it's no tougher than any other race), but in the game world all members of the race stand head and shoulders above the other races of the world.

A high-level adventurer could be an exceptional Man or a typical Noldor. Each would be 10th level.

What you're proposing balances nothing. If all Noldor have to start out at a higher level, how does that achieve balance any better than a template or racial bonuses? You're essentially giving them another kind of racial bonus, whether you call it that or not. Let me put it like this: balance them without level requirements, racial bonuses, or templates. It would be, essentially, an impossible task, based on Tolkien's material.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Yeah. I was under the impression that those three were to some degree or other working with the Rangers patrolling what was left of Arnor keeping places like the Shire relatively safe.

Yes. Aragorn and the sons of Elrond spent many years in the wilderness hunting the servants of Sauron. Elladan and Elrohir had a special hatred for orcs, a band of which attacked their mother - Elrond's wife, Celebrian, daughter of Galadriel - and kidnaped and wounded her so badly she went over the sea.

 

[mmadsen]

What you're proposing balances nothing. If all Noldor have to start out at a higher level, how does that achieve balance any better than a template or racial bonuses? You're essentially giving them another kind of racial bonus, whether you call it that or not. Let me put it like this: balance them without level requirements, racial bonuses, or templates. It would be, essentially, an impossible task, based on Tolkien's material.

I still don't understand your point.

A typical Noldor should be more powerful than a typical Hobbit, right? If your point is that this means they'll never be balanced, I guess I have ask why you're using the term "balanced". That's like saying Gandalf isn't balanced against Samwise. One is more powerful than the other, but it isn't an issue of game balance.

Game balance, as I said before, is about being equally powerful at the same level or for the same cost; it's about the game, not the game world. You want a 5th-level Fighter and 5th-level Wizard to feel just as useful in an adventure. You want a 5th-level Human and a 5th-level Dwarf to feel just as useful in an adventure. You don't want the Knights of Gondor and the Hobbits of Hobbiton to feel like equals, or the Noldor and the Wild Men to feel like equals any more than you want Sauron and Gimli to feel like equals.

My very simple point is that D&D has a mechanic for races (and another mechanic, templates, that can be used for races), and you don't need to make a strong Noldor race (or template) to make the Noldor of your game world powerful. If a typical Noldor is an Expert 5/Sorcerer 5, it doesn't matter that his racial stats are those of a normal elf. He's vastly powerful without the need for a convoluted ECL-5 race.

 

[Storm Raven]

Exactly. And an Elven lord from the days of old would attract even more attention.

Yep. And one would assume that Sauron would be paying attention to the movements of an elf who was instrumental in destroying his machinations in the north so many years before.

And don't forget just how old Glorfindel probably is. Most of the characters in LotR have birthdates listed, so long as they were born in the Second or Third Age.

Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen were born early in the Third Age, for example, making them about 2,000 years old. Elrond was born late in the First Age, making him over 4,500 years old.

Glorfindel was born much earlier in the First Age. He is at least 4,500 years old, and perhaps as old as 10,000 years (time isn't accounted for very well in the texts about the First Age). For the record, Legolas is also apparently a First Age holdover, the text doesn't give him a birth date in the Second or Third Age either.

Galadriel's birth predates the Noldor returning from Arda to Middle Earth. She is ridiculously old.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

My very simple point is that D&D has a mechanic for races (and another mechanic, templates, that can be used for races), and you don't need to make a strong Noldor race (or template) to make the Noldor of your game world powerful. If a typical Noldor is an Expert 5/Sorcerer 5, it doesn't matter that his racial stats are those of a normal elf. He's vastly powerful without the need for a convoluted ECL-5 race.

But does having skills, spells, and BAB greater than others make a Noldor? Or is it that they are physically and spiritually simply MORE than the other races? By giving them additional levels, you tack on learned skills, not the sheer presence, power, and potential of the Noldor. It's really just a different kind of power, but I think I have to agree with the good Colonel that races and templates capture the right flavor better.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

But does having skills, spells, and BAB greater than others make a Noldor? Or is it that they are physically and spiritually simply MORE than the other races? By giving them additional levels, you tack on learned skills, not the sheer presence, power, and potential of the Noldor. It's really just a different kind of power, but I think I have to agree with the good Colonel that races and templates capture the right flavor better.

I would disagree. Even if the Noldor all have straight 18's and a few extra abilities, they will still die like 1st level characters when they are 1st level. Is that the feel you want?

In the 3rd Age, a 1st level Noldor is an impossibility. So what would they be like? Who knows?

Being physically and spiritually "more" is best described as having a higher level in D&D. That is half the point of the level system. Piles of skills seem perfectly appropriate in my mind; Noldor are skilled and wise and learned in most everything they do.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I still don't understand your point.

A typical Noldor should be more powerful than a typical Hobbit, right? If your point is that this means they'll never be balanced, I guess I have ask why you're using the term "balanced". That's like saying Gandalf isn't balanced against Samwise. One is more powerful than the other, but it isn't an issue of game balance.

Game balance, as I said before, is about being equally powerful at the same level or for the same cost; it's about the game, not the game world. You want a 5th-level Fighter and 5th-level Wizard to feel just as useful in an adventure. You want a 5th-level Human and a 5th-level Dwarf to feel just as useful in an adventure. You don't want the Knights of Gondor and the Hobbits of Hobbiton to feel like equals, or the Noldor and the Wild Men to feel like equals any more than you want Sauron and Gimli to feel like equals.

My very simple point is that D&D has a mechanic for races (and another mechanic, templates, that can be used for races), and you don't need to make a strong Noldor race (or template) to make the Noldor of your game world powerful. If a typical Noldor is an Expert 5/Sorcerer 5, it doesn't matter that his racial stats are those of a normal elf. He's vastly powerful without the need for a convoluted ECL-5 race.

Balancing means that two characters of two different races can start out at first level and be on an equal footing, and maintain that equal footing at each succeeding level. Having to start Noldor out at a higher level, or giving them ECLs via templates or what-have-you, means they can never be balanced in the sense RPGs mean it. Making them a PC race is tough to do, because if you remain true to Tolkien, they will start out with a lot of advantages, and will always be more powerful. That's not balanced. It would be true to Tolkien, and it can be done many different ways, but it's not balanced.

What you don't seem to grok is that the Noldor are just naturally superior. Other humanoid beings in Tolkien's world will never be equally useful. No matter how you cut it, a Hobbit - or even a Dunadan like Aragorn, who was the wisest and hardiest man of his day - will never equal a Noldor in usefulness in the RPG sense. That's why I'm saying they can never be "balanced" in an RPG.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Canis makes a good point. The Noldor Elves lived in the Blessed Realm, which made them spiritually and physically superior from the get-go - those born there were born that way. They were infused with the light of...well, you'll actually need to read the Silmarillion. I can't give a brief explanation. Anyway, such an origin is exactly the type of thing a template was made for.