How to enable Running Away

[Janx]

Which is in my eyes not a problem the DM has to address. If the players don't let the PCs run away, even when facing overwhelming odds, it is their decision.

Not every encounter does need to have multiple escape routes. Imo the DM should make sure that the location where the encounter happens fits into to world and let the PCs figure out how to escape. Some locations will naturally have more and better escape routes than other. Thats just another challenge the PCs have to deal with.

Why should the DM check if the PCs have bought items to help them escape? If the PCs run away and wath items to use for it is completely in the hands of the players and imo the DM should not make any changes depending on the PCs having items to help them escape or not.
And if those items are available depends on the setting and location.

Also, what would you do in the case the PCs don't have those items?

I never said for the DM to check to see if the PCs brought the items. I said the DM should check to make sure escape is feasible. Whether the players do the smart thing is the player's problem. Whether they plan ahead is their problem. Whether the observe the environment and see their opportunity is their problem.

What this thread is about is how the DMs can make running away more feasible. Because many people do not think it is feasible, so they don't do it. Points that don't address solving that situation, is like talking about how alcoholism isn't a problem in a discussion about how to get over alcoholism.

@Morrus;'s got a great point, that removing the safety net and killing some PCs may change the player's mindset about the proactive steps they should be taking. It addresses a change the DM can make to bring running away back into consideration by players.

To clarify one more thing for [MENTION=2518]Derren[/MENTION], I feel like you're threadcrapping here because you're not addressing ways to enable running away, you're washing your hands of the problem which does not change the existing situation that PCs don't run away. Any of the ideas listed here aren't going to be literally and fully executed by anybody. I don't expect the GM to absolutely supply every encounter with a deliberate escape route.

But it's something he should consider, especially on encounters that are blatantly more powerful than the PCs. If the PCs walk into the room and there's a mega-CR monster, just what exactly did the GM expect would happen? Direct combat is inherently a TPK waiting to happen. So clearly, the PCs needed opportunity to get clues that this monster was in the room before they entered or an escape route. If death is a forefone conclusion, the encounter SHOULD be designed with other opportunities embedded in it, otherwise, it really is just a deliberate campaign killer.*

*on various other threads about level appropriate challenges, just about every DM who says hog-wash to that and has much stronger encounters appear also incorporate clues as to its presence. No good DM introduces a TPK-monster in the next room that was unavoidable if the party paid attention or exercised any caution. The point of such encounters then tends to be to test your avoidance skills or running away skills.

 

[Derren]

What this thread is about is how the DMs can make running away more feasible. Because many people do not think it is feasible, so they don't do it.

And here is the problem. The players don't think it is feasible. "Not running away" is a player problem which is not solved by the DM changing the encounter.

What you need to do is to get the players to the point where they consider running away as a normal tactic they can use and not as something which is required by the plot.
When the players then truely want their PCs to run away they will let them do it no matter how obvious or hard it is. They will find a way to do it.

So you should lead by example. Have a other NPC tell them to run away or run adventures in a occupied city where it is pretty clear that staying and fighting is a very bad idea. Or heck, give a lecture in game by a trusted ex adventurer the players like about the virtue of running away or just flat out tell them before the game that they should not forget that running away is a viable option.

But as long as the players don't even consider "running away" when playing it doesn't matter how feasible it is and how many escape routes there are. The players won't do it.

 

[El Mahdi]

Which is in my eyes not a problem the DM has to address. If the players don't let the PCs run away, even when facing overwhelming odds, it is their decision.

Okay, we get it. You feel it's the players responsibility. End of Story.

Problem is that the topic of this thread isn't "Who's responsibility is it to make running away possible", nor is it "Is enabling PC's to run away a good thing?"...

It's "How to enable Running Away."

If you don't have any ideas on how to do that, that's fine...but then you probably shouldn't be posting in this thread. Coming in and starting an argument that it's a bad idea and shouldn't be done is disrespecting the OP, and those that are discussing ideas on how to do this with him.

The OP even tried to get you involved in the subject of the thread by asking pointed questions that were on topic and providing a polite reminder, and you instead blew right past them and went on with reinforcing your argument that enabling running away shouldn't be done in the first place.

Those of us who are here reading and discussing this think it is a valid subject, and are interested in ideas concerning this.

So, do you have anything constructive to offer...?

 

[rogueattorney]

Okay, we get it. You feel it's the players responsibility. End of Story.

Problem is that the topic of this thread isn't "Who's responsibility is it to make running away possible", nor is it "Is enabling PC's to run away a good thing?"...

It's "How to enable Running Away."

If you don't have any ideas on how to do that, that's fine...but then you probably shouldn't be posting in this thread. Coming in and starting an argument that it's a bad idea and shouldn't be done is disrespecting the OP, and those that are discussing ideas on how to do this with him.

The OP even tried to get you involved in the subject of the thread by asking pointed questions that were on topic and providing a polite reminder, and you instead blew right past them and went on with reinforcing your argument that enabling running away shouldn't be done in the first place.

Those of us who are here reading and discussing this think it is a valid subject, and are interested in ideas concerning this.

So, do you have anything constructive to offer...?

Not to speak for Darren, but as someone who really hasn't seen a group that won't run away from time to time, I really don't know what it is the DM is doing to discourage or prevent them from running away in the first place. From my view, that's where the OP's question takes me... "What are you doing that makes them not run away? Stop doing that."

Are you setting up/running adventures where the only way to continue the campaign is to engage in a series of set piece combats? Well then, the players aren't going to have their characters run away.

Are the mechanics you are using make running away as likely - or even more likely - to result in the pcs' deaths as simply staying and fighting? Then the players aren't going to have their characters run away.

Do you run combats such that there is really no risk of permanent harm to the pcs? Then, what's the point of running away?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Provide some limited use magic that is relatively cheap but geared more towards escape than anything else. Rarely is something pure in this regard, but a flashy, loud effect that leaves an area filled with smoke is more likely to be handy as a way to get away than a lot of other purposes. Sure, you can use that as a distraction and/or means of approach too.

If the party insists on using up all such magic for distraction/attack, then rachet up the danger so that they wished they had saved some. It's one thing to have the party constantly fighting monsters faster than them, with no magic to escape. It's another thing to have the party fighting stuff about their speed that suddenly gets tough because the party has saved none of their escape methods for an emergency.

It helps to have some such magic with little to no range on it. For example, have an item that can place a "glowing wall of slow" next to a character. The monsters may hesitate, try to run around it, or plow right through. Either way, the party gets a bit of a headstart on most of the foes. Make the same item a ranged effect, and it will get used early to slow down melee characters from closing.

 

[Janx]

Are you setting up/running adventures where the only way to continue the campaign is to engage in a series of set piece combats? Well then, the players aren't going to have their characters run away.

Are the mechanics you are using make running away as likely - or even more likely - to result in the pcs' deaths as simply staying and fighting? Then the players aren't going to have their characters run away.

Do you run combats such that there is really no risk of permanent harm to the pcs? Then, what's the point of running away?

These are great questions. I'm speaking broadly, that a common problem seen by some GMs (as evidenced by threads on the topic) is that the PCs never run away.

One culprit blamed is the rule-set. People do the math and can see that a party that moves at 30' and monsters that move at 40' and the party is pretty much screwed.

I'm trying to be rules-agnostic, or at least avoid bashing rulesets. While it might be technically correct, few people want to hear "you are using the wrong rules, change your ruleset"

So the exercise as I see it is to come up with ideas that enable running away, changing player mindset such that PCs consider it and attempt it more often that they do now, which is mostly never by stereotypical examples.



Personally, to answer your questions:
1) does the PC have to pass the combat to advance?
No, I don't think so. I try to make things such that I have obstacles to the PCs goals, but the PCs are free to do whatever they want, including abandoning the goal.

2) Do the rules make running away hard?
I have no doubt that 3.5e mechanics do not help running away. by default, most folks do the math and decide to take their chances for a TPK, because there were no hooks left in to make it an option. I certainly don't normally think to look at escape routes and see if maybe I should drop one in now and then.

3) Do you make combats have personal risk?
Yes. While I may tend to make adventures with level appropriate monsters, it only takes 5 encounters or bad rolls to gank a PC. And while I might make the man who shot your pa be a few levels above you, I won't stop you from going to the cave of the ridiculously strong monster. So while I try to make it a fair fight, if you die, you're dead.

 

[El Mahdi]

Not to speak for Darren, but as someone who really hasn't seen a group that won't run away from time to time, I really don't know what it is the DM is doing to discourage or prevent them from running away in the first place. From my view, that's where the OP's question takes me... "What are you doing that makes them not run away? Stop doing that."

Are you setting up/running adventures where the only way to continue the campaign is to engage in a series of set piece combats? Well then, the players aren't going to have their characters run away.

Are the mechanics you are using make running away as likely - or even more likely - to result in the pcs' deaths as simply staying and fighting? Then the players aren't going to have their characters run away.

Do you run combats such that there is really no risk of permanent harm to the pcs? Then, what's the point of running away?

You've been a very fortunate DM then.

I can't say I've seen this with every group I've had or been a part of, but I've seen it in a significant number of them...and it's far from universally the DM's fault. There are mutiple reasons why this happens. So for the sake of argument, let's assume the DM is "doing it right"...then what else is there to help enable or facilitate this.

I think one of the problems is that the Rules don't make it very easy to retreat. Then again, even in real life a retreat isn't very easy. So... But I think a lot of players feel that by the rules, they've got just as good a chance of survival by sticking it out, as they do by retreating...in other words "damned if they do, damned if they don't, so they may as well go down fighting". Now that's not always necessarily true, but they do feel that way...and sometimes it is true (by the rules).

I think the factors in resolving this (questions/answers) are:

First: communicate to the players in some manner that the encounter is too much for them, and they should probably choose to avoid it, retreat from it, or be more creative in their tactics.

The Question here is: How does a DM communicate this effectively?


Second: make the players aware of the tactical options that are in the rules that can be utilized to retreat.

The Question here is: what options in the rules support retreating? How can they be utilized by the players for a retreat? And, in a non-standard D&D game (low magic, limited magic items, grim n' gritty, etc.), what resources and rules may the players utilize if magic items and spells aren't an option for retreating?


Third: sometimes the rules are to blame.

The Question here is: what houserules do people know of or have come up with, to address percieved shortcomings in the rules for purposes of retreating?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I will say that, as a player, an exit strategy is the first thing I look for when encountering hostiles. Unfortunately, getting the rest of the party to retreat is nigh impossible. I almost fled, once...because I was the only player whose character was still standing...but, one final shot dropped the last opponent and I didn't have to flee.

Tell me about it. Players don't know when to run until it's too late - WotC had an article about how TPKs "sneak up" on players this way. The players panic when a PC falls. Now they know they should retreat, but instead, they fight all the harder to get that PC back up and then take them away. Often this hard fighting kills the enemies, at the cost of daily resources.

Here's an example from my own campaign. The PCs were 7th-level, and are high on healing and damage (two leaders, two strikers that day). They wanted to take on a powerful opponent, 11th-level, who knew they were coming due to their obvious strategy - stealing a boat. (Well, a silt ship, and they were all in one place of the city.)

I decided to warn them with in-game evidence. The opponent created a bunch of Alarm ritual wards around the district the PCs were heading to. The skill DCs were set to 11th-level (hard 11th-level DCs, as opposed to what the ritual rules say, which would have made them slightly harder to spot). The PCs didn't spot them, despite one having a great Perception score, the alarms always spotted them too. The alarms called a team of giant killers (literally, it made sense in campaign), actually shouting out the name of the district (so obviously there were alarms all over the place). The PCs fought the encounter, but it was set for their level. Alas, it had lots of archers and brutes, so the PCs almost lost. The PCs won, and retreated.

It turned out the alarms had no influence on their thinking. It was only getting their butts kicked. Note that they did not retreat until after that encounter was over.

These are great questions. I'm speaking broadly, that a common problem seen by some GMs (as evidenced by threads on the topic) is that the PCs never run away.

One culprit blamed is the rule-set. People do the math and can see that a party that moves at 30' and monsters that move at 40' and the party is pretty much screwed.

I'm trying to be rules-agnostic, or at least avoid bashing rulesets.

I think any set that allows mobile combat (eg charging) makes running away impossible. Moving away defensively (what is that called?) lets you move at half or full speed. Your opponent can catch up and hit you. Same in 3.x and 4e. Or they can just charge (even easier in 4e).

IMC, I've tried to have villains escape. It virtually never happens. The NPCs can't teleport far enough (those that can). Those that run simply get shot at and/or charged. By the time the NPCs are retreating, at least a few are dead, so the rest get focus-fired. The same works in reverse. Retreating is lethal, and I think that's the case in every edition of D&D (having played 2e through to 4e).

Under what circumstances are you expecting PCs to retreat? I think if the PCs walked into an over-the-top encounter, they would take it as a screwjob, transform into Sun Tzu, and kick its butt anyway just to teach me a lesson.

I think retreat should be narrative instead. You've beaten the fore guard, now here comes a thousand orcs. Maybe you want to go back, or face swarms (literally) of orcs.

 

[Janx]

I think retreat should be narrative instead. You've beaten the fore guard, now here comes a thousand orcs. Maybe you want to go back, or face swarms (literally) of orcs.

This could be another technique.

Show the big scary monster over THERE. The PCs can runaway and not fight the monster because it isn't right next to them. A bit of foreshadowing or blatant broadcasting, but the effect is the run away happens before contact with the enemy is actually made.

One of the philosophies I have, is that if you put a mega-big monster in the game, the party can't beat it. Whether the players realize it or not, combat is NOT the objective with such a monster. Therefore, it must exist for some other purpose. Telegraphing the other possibilities sometimes helps for really dense players who think they have no choice but to go through it.

 

[S'mon]

I've never seen a problem with PCs getting away if they decide to flee. The GM adjudicates pursuit - monsters may not pursue, they may be slower, the PCs may bar/piton a door (iron spikes, remember!), the PCs may hide, the PCs may out-endure the monsters (endurance checks), etc. I just GM it realistically - same for PCs chasing monsters; they may sometimes manage to track down & kill a fleeing monster, but that's relatively rare; once you're out of the immediate area you're usually safe.

The actual problem is not "the GM not enabling running away", it is PCs not thinking to run away. As others have said. It is not threadcrapping to say so.