D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[Fanaelialae]

I voted tiers of play.

As I see it, the biggest issue for the fighter is that while a high level wizard is effectively a demigod, the high level fighter is essentially a normal guy with a sword (albeit, one who is exceptionally good with that sword).

This often gets wallpapered over in actual play thanks to magic items. High level magic items make a fighter significantly better than they would otherwise be, not only improving on their existing options, but also often expanding them (breadth and depth).

However, take away those magic items and the disparity becomes readily apparent. This is an issue because not all DMs award magic items in the same way. I've played under DMs who were ultra-stingy with magic items, Monty Haul DMs, DMs who seeded their campaign with completely random items, and those who created bespoke items custom tailored to the PCs. Based on my experience, a wizard will be fairly stable in their ability to contribute across all of those campaigns, whereas the fighter's contribution will vary wildly depending on which of those campaigns they are playing in.

It's not something that can be fixed by magic items schedules, like those from 3.x, because IME the stingy DM will simply ignore those guidelines. Moreover, when magic items are assumed by the rules in that way, it makes their acquisition feel like a treadmill. It's less exciting to find a +3 sword to replace your +2 sword, because you were expecting to get that upgrade around this level anyway (and if you don't get it, then many players will start to feel like the DM is cheating them by denying them something the rules intend for them to get).

As such, I would like to see high level fighters be demigods as well (but a fightery, not wizardy, expression thereof). Which I think falls under tiers of play. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play Conan, but I can't recall a Conan adventure with a mage in the "party" who was equivalent to Rand al Thor at the end of the Wheel of Time (basically, a demigod). There'd be no point for Conan sticking around in a story like that, unless the writer manufactured one. As a DM, I look for chances to let the PCs shine, but being forced by the rules to manufacture such opportunities is another thing entirely.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So I was just delusional when I thought my champion fighter that I played up to level 20 contributed reasonably well to the team? Good to know.

Yeah, I have to say the hypebole some people employ isn't super constructive. I think there is an issue, but it is not a massive one, nor does it require redesigning the whole game from the ground up. But some tweaks definitely could and should be made, and the anniversary edition is an excellent time for that.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Its a little weird to have a (+) thread, but an option in the poll for people who do want to claim that "These problems don't exist."

I went for option 3: Build new classes. There are too many people who want the Fighter to remain at or below human limits, "the simple option for beginners", or a premiere choice for those who only want to be woken up/put their phone down when initiative is rolled.

Furthermore, using the Fighter chassis is too limiting: the Fighter can't do much compared to the other classes outside of single-target damage, but they are one of the best classes at that function. It is probably easier to use a new class with less popular assumptions in what they can do and power level.

 

[Oofta]

My main issue with fighters resolves around strength based fighters not having good ranged attack options. I make longbows versatile in my game or if you prefer you can buy a quiver or bandolier for your thrown weapons and throw as many as you like. If crossbows can have a ludicrous speed of fire, so can javelins.

But the main issue seems to be games where the casters can go nova the majority of times. My suggestion from the other thread was to change how casters recover spells. Make recovering spell slots during a long rest more like Arcane Recovery. At least as an optional rule.

Beyond that? I don't have the same problem other people have so I don't have a lot to add.

 

[Monayuris]

Remove all at will cantrips.
Reduce spells per day by one across all levels. 1st level Wizards get 1 spell per day.
Require an Arcana Check to cast a spell - failure means the cast suffers some calamity or detriment
Ritual spells require expenditure in gold or coast hit points/hit dice.
Grant fighters 1/2 Proficiency bonus to all Saves.

 

[Remathilis]

Remove all at will cantrips.
Reduce spells per day by one across all levels. 1st level Wizards get 1 spell per day.
Require an Arcana Check to cast a spell - failure means the cast suffers some calamity or detriment
Ritual spells require expenditure in gold or coast hit points/hit dice.
Grant fighters 1/2 Proficiency bonus to all Saves.

No.

The answer to help fighters shouldn't be too gimp casters.

 

[Yaarel]

The high-level Fighter and Wizard classes balance each other reasonably. To swap damage for shenanigans is fair. Also, shenanigans are nice, but the high level party still needs a heavy-hitter to close an encounter.

The concern about the Fighter-Wizard dynamic seems to be more about flavor: high magic flavor versus low magic flavor.

There are a number of ways to reconcile the flavor dichotomy.



To keep up with Wizard shenanigans:

• The Fighter have get shenanigans too by choosing a gishy archetype: Eldritch Knight and Psi Knight.

• A new Fighter archetype can makes a powerful magic item a class feature, so the Fighter is low-magic but the gear is high-magic.



To design a low magic setting is easy:

• Go epic (with one epic boon per level instead of class features) after level 8, 10, or 12, according to taste about spells.

• Have the setting ban full caster classes, thus Paladin, Ranger, Trickster, Psi Knight, Eldritch Knight, and Monk are the "mages".

 

[Monayuris]

No.

The answer to help fighters shouldn't be too gimp casters.

There’s too much magic in 5E which is why the problem is so apparent. WoTC continues the mistake of making magic more and more powerful, easy, and lacking in consequence and as a result classes based on mundane power are diminished.

Fighter is fine as it is (except for how broken saving throws are) it just needs to have overpowered classes brought back down to their level.

The problem with increasing the ability of the fighter is twofold:

1. it increases the base power of the class and makes it so that it becomes way stronger than it should be at low levels for certain styles of play. It is a valid play style to have 1st level fighters be average mortal/human level power (your average soldier). Beefing up the fighter impacts that play style.

2. adding more to the fighter increases the complexity of the class. As more and more features are added to keep it in parity with the already over-powered wizard, the complexity will increase further.

The simplest and least invasive method of balancing the classes is to bring spellcasting classes back down to match the game baseline balance.

 

[Jer]

Remove all at will cantrips.

Cantrips aren't where wizards outshine fighters or other classes.

Reduce spells per day by one across all levels. 1st level Wizards get 1 spell per day.

Low level wizards are not the ones who are the problem.

Require an Arcana Check to cast a spell - failure means the cast suffers some calamity or detriment

Requiring rolls for spells like that slows down the game to no real benefit other than making wizards annoyingly random characters to play.

Ritual spells require expenditure in gold or coast hit points/hit dice.

Doesn't actually solve anything except make more work and/or interpersonal difficulties for the DM.

Grant fighters 1/2 Proficiency bonus to all Saves.

The 5e saving throw model is my least favorite part of its design so I have no thoughts on tinkering with it other than I hate the idea of proficiency bonus being anything other than all-or-nothing.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Voted 'other' so here's my suggestion
This isn't so much a way to get fighter 'shenanigans' but my premise is to remove the wizard from the fighter's niche on the battlefield as a damage dealer and make them more the actual designated 'shenanigans' class, you don't have to remove all their offensive options but focus more on spells that buff or disable or interact with the environment rather than direct damage or have them use the specialised damage spells like shatter or banishment, and the warlock and sorcerer take the role of primary arcane damage dealers instead.

The fighter probably needs some more of their own buffs too but combat is supposed to be their specialisation and they need to either be made to stand out more in that area or have some of the other classes step off it's toes a bit, or both.