D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[MichaelSomething]

No.

The answer to help fighters shouldn't be too gimp casters.

But that's the way Gary Gygax did it? And if it's good enough for him, it should be good enough for any D&D player!

Bring back material components!

 

[Minigiant]

Sorry, not lazy. Just unimaginative.

Not unimaginative. Just that we consume different media.

So when you say "I don't see it" I might say "I've actually played multiple games with demigods, magicians and mortal men balanced against each other"

 

[Yaarel]

I play mages. I look at spells closely.

It seems to me, 5e gets the Wizard and other caster classes moreorless correct. If anything, the Wizard is underpowered compared to the Fighter.



Where the caster classes have problematics is:

• All spells are wildly inconsistent, differing in power compared to other spells in the same slot level. This needs a drastic overall, often reassigning spells to new slot levels.

• 5e does a great job at removing overpowered spells, but less good job at removing underpowered subpar spells.

• The Wizard class feels thematically to broad, steps on the toes of other caster classes, and can benefit from restricting spells to a chosen theme.

 

[Remathilis]

Honestly... your wrong.

I feel like we are always weird about addressing the actual issue, where no matter how much fluff or things you give martials, casters innately are just more crazy no matter what you do. PF2E had it right, you need to do both nerf casters, and buff martials/give them more options, to balance it out, otherwise what are we really doing here

While I can't speak for everyone, that has always been my goal, in one way or another. I feel martials are too weak in many ways, and with so much magic, spells, and spell slots caster can be too strong. So, pretty much everything you'll see me doing revolves around balancing the two instead of just nerfing one too much or bumping up the other too much.

That is, personally, my goal.

At the risk of sounding flippant; if both D&D 4e and PF 2e solved the problem, then why aren't you playing that?

I mean, if you want to argue 4e is no longer in print, I get that. But PF 2e is, and by most standards is popular (if not ubiquitous like D&D has become) so why are we fighting to make 5e like them?

I'm not against adding some diversity to the fighter and I don't mind a little edit to the wizard, but if you're looking for a wholesale rewrite of both classes, that magic system and the action economy to put them on equal footing, I mean D&D 4e and PF 2e are right there...

 

[Lanefan]

Other: the poll question is too highly-biased to answer properly as it focuses only on boosting the Fighters.

The solution is not to give the Fighter more superpowers, it's to a) rein in the casters by making spells harder to cast:

--- all spells take time within a round to cast (e.g. you start casting on your turn initiative but your spell doesn't resolve until, say, 10 lower than your turn init., or variable by spell) and can be interrupted at any point during that time
--- ANY disruption, jostling, or damage taken by the caster during casting interrupts the spell, period. No combat casting at all for arcane types, and only in very specific circumstances for divine casters e.g. a War Cleric casting a combat-affecting spell such as Prayer or Chant
--- casting spells while in melee is flat-out impossible unless your goal is to, in effect, try to cast a wild magic surge

...and b) to add risk to magic use:

--- any interrupted spell risks (but doesn't guarantee) a wild magic surge
--- for many specific spells that have had their risk factor removed over the years, put it back in (poly other, teleport, fireball, etc.)
--- make casters roll to aim their non-touch spells and don't allow any caster-side abilities (e.g. the Evoker trick) that make allies immune to the effects

 

[Fanaelialae]

Besides Fireball whose damage is inflated for plot protection, each slot level has a limited amount damage that it is capable of dealing, and most damage spells are defective and deal less damage than its slot should (such as Flame Strike).

So the 5e Wizard is linear. Unlike 3e and earlier when each slot level continued to increase damage while leveling, whence geometrically increasing damage.

With regard to the Fighter, any additional damage to an attack, gets multiplied − geometrically − by the Extra Attacks.

I'm not talking about damage. I'll grant that the fighter is generally as good or better than the wizard with regard to dealing damage.

But can a 20th level fighter create a copy of himself and then permanently polymorph it into a dragon? The wizard can. Can the fighter rewrite someone's memories so that they believe whatever he wants them to believe? The wizard can. Can the fighter lock someone behind an invulnerable force field so that he can deal with them at his convenience? The wizard can.

Can a 20th level wizard deal damage? Most definitely.

The discussion that inspired this thread was focused on a wizard's capacity to pull off 'shenanigans' vs that of the fighter. If you think that the fighter's moderate ability to output more damage puts him on par with the wizard, you're free to make that argument. However, I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

[FallenRX]

At the risk of sounding flippant; if both D&D 4e and PF 2e solved the problem, then why aren't you playing that?

I mean, if you want to argue 4e is no longer in print, I get that. But PF 2e is, and by most standards is popular (if not ubiquitous like D&D has become) so why are we fighting to make 5e like them?

I'm not against adding some diversity to the fighter and I don't mind a little edit to the wizard, but if you're looking for a wholesale rewrite of both classes, that magic system and the action economy to put them on equal footing, I mean D&D 4e and PF 2e are right there...

I play PF2E, and also still play 5E

I never said "LETS JUST TURN 5E into 4E/PF2E!" Im just saying that the reality of the issue we are facing in our game requires a similar solution there isn't exactly a way around this.

 

[Remathilis]

I play PF2E, and also still play 5E

I never said "LETS JUST TURN 5E into 4E/PF2E!" Im just saying that the reality of the issue we are facing in our game requires a similar solution there isn't exactly a way around this.

I don't agree that you need such radical overhauls. Nor do I expect Wizards will make them. It's reasonable to assume they may improve the fighter's abilities and fix some overperforming spells. It's not that they will adapt 4e/PF2e's models.

(And frankly, if they did it would be my jumping off point, as I wasn't fond of either system for a variety of reasons. But I won't mistake my personal distaste for any sort of grand judgement on their quality.)

 

[DND_Reborn]

First, I don't want that in a D&D game. At all. A 20th level character jumping a 400 feet? That's an entirely different genre.

Great, if you don't want it then don't use it. You've expressed your views numerous times now, but this thread is a (+) thread about fixing an issue many players see. If you don't then please either bow out or contribute, even if you don't want to use it in your games.

I don't want a fighter jumping 400 feet, either, but I am offering it because I know others do want it and I am trying to be helpful so they can play the game they want.

D&D encompasses many genres and play styles, yours is not the be-all-end-all for everyone else.

Second, if that kind of thing is really an issue there are plenty of options. Boots of flying are uncommon items for example. That, and how often does it really matter?

As you well know because relying on magic items isn't the solution for these same people.

How often it happens is immaterial to the thread--the point is that it is wanted because it does happen.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I agree that the Fighter must have more features to contribute to social and exploration. For me, that is obvious.

Great, because that is one of the issues. Do you have any suggestions for it?

The question is only about balance between classes in combat. How do combat shenanigans versus combat damage dealing result?

That isn't the only question or issue, just one of them. The point of shenanigans in combat is when used, you don't need to worry about damage dealing because the shenanigan pretty much ends the encounter.