How to get rid of the adversarial tone in the game

Gundark

Explorer
I think that the players in my group are taking an adversarial role with me (the DM). There is this tone with some of the players that it is a case of "us vs. the DM". I think some people like this set-up in D&D, and I've seen symptoms of this in others group decisions (ie. the party keeps their battle plan secret from the DM). I really don't want this tone in my games. The fact is that while this is a game, I don't want their to be a VS. quality to it. I want to provide group a challenge, and I don't think it makes for a good game if the DM gives in to the players to avoid this. What should I do?
 

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Gundark said:
I think that the players in my group are taking an adversarial role with me (the DM). There is this tone with some of the players that it is a case of "us vs. the DM". I think some people like this set-up in D&D, and I've seen symptoms of this in others group decisions (ie. the party keeps their battle plan secret from the DM). I really don't want this tone in my games. The fact is that while this is a game, I don't want their to be a VS. quality to it. I want to provide group a challenge, and I don't think it makes for a good game if the DM gives in to the players to avoid this. What should I do?
Go light on the hack n' slash and increase the role play, the 'us vs. you' attitude usually dissapears in 3d12 games.
 




Gundark said:
I think that the players in my group are taking an adversarial role with me (the DM). There is this tone with some of the players that it is a case of "us vs. the DM". I think some people like this set-up in D&D, and I've seen symptoms of this in others group decisions (ie. the party keeps their battle plan secret from the DM). I really don't want this tone in my games. The fact is that while this is a game, I don't want their to be a VS. quality to it. I want to provide group a challenge, and I don't think it makes for a good game if the DM gives in to the players to avoid this. What should I do?

Do you, or have you in the past used the Player's battle plans against them? That could account for that portion. I know my DM does that and thus creates an adversarial atmosphere at times. He also uses alot of "DM Fiat" for the NPC's taht he wants to live, which just comes off as cheap to us players.

Also, I agree with ThunderFoot... Less battle, more RP
 

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
If anyone gets adversarial, the DM should punch them in the mouth.

That's what I was gonna say!

I call it the "tough love" approach to DMing. I want you to have fun and be victorious, and I will beat you near death to make sure you believe me!
 

Yeah, you can say, "We can play this adversarial style, but you guys have one pc a piece, I have hundreds of thousands of monsters. I was going to piece them out over the next 20 levels, but it might just be easier to do it all at once." Then maybe roll some dice and tell them they see Demogorgon riding a tarrasque at them, and they're pretty sure the tarrasque has class levels.

I've noticed a tendency in players to be great roleplayers right up until initiative is rolled, and then going completely tactical after that. I call it the remorseless Kill-a-Con mode, in which they are seeing everything through red-tinged robocop vision with small scrolling text at the bottom that says things like, "Orc, warrior. 110xp." (XP awards by creature no longer exist in 3e, but the programming is still 2e.)

Here's my old GM Manifesto. It was my response to a discussion about game lethality and killer GMs that was going around on another board a few years ago. My feeling is its half finished, but thats okay. You learn something new everyday.

phindar said:
As a gm, I'm not out to kill characters. I try to present the obstacles, describe the setting accurately and vividly, and make sure the rules are applied fairly to all (pc and npc alike).

That said, I'm not out to keep anyone alive either.

Sometimes characters die because they do something stupid, and sometimes its because they were just unlucky. Chance is always a factor. As a player, I don't want a gm maliciously trying to kill me, or benevolently trying to keep me alive. As long as the gm is fair, I'm happy with the consequences.

Part of the game is gambling. Instead of betting money you're betting the time you put into a character and the desire to keep playing it. But if you can't lose, then it’s no fun winning.

I've had players who thought characters should only die "if they do something stupid", or think that if they can't solve the mystery, the gm will fudge it so they make it to the end combat. All I can say is, I don't get it.

The part about the "do something stupid" that I have a problem with is that, who's to say whats stupid? As a gm, I pretty much get the final word on the subject, but I am aware that the authority to declare an action stupid doesn't have with it any special power to be correct.

Sometimes, no matter how brilliant a group of players you have, you will be staring over the screen wondering who these morons are and how they got into your house. The thing I had to realize is, as a gm, my judgement of what was the right or wrong thing to do was based around having perfect information. I had read the module or designed the adventure, so I knew the repercussions of the pcs actions. Pc's don't have that benefit. They make their decisions based around the information they have, which is the information that I give them. If they're tackling a scenario in an asinine manner, then there exists the possibility that instead of them being morons, I presented it poorly. (Sometimes they're just morons. It can go either way.)

Further, just because something is obvious to me doesn't mean it’s obvious to anyone else, or even especially right. What if the gm's idea on how to tackle a situation is moronic? Are any of us infallible? (It’s a rhetorical question.) I've played in games where the gm decided on the correct course of action and would punish the party for not doing it (and not consciously, just if you deviated from what he thought was 'right', it was skewed against you). All I can say is, for a group of players, it’s not the most fun way in the world to spend a Thursday night.

I prefer to design open ended scenarios. I try to know what capabilities and motivations the npcs have, and come up with a few ways they and the pcs are likely to meet. But I find It’s fairly useless to try and pick what path the pcs will take (except in the broadest sense), and all but impossible to say how it will turn out. Letting the situations play out in unexpected ways is where a lot of my enjoyment of the game comes from.
 

Crothian said:
Talk to the group, actively root for them, help them with harmless suggestions

Add to that: a few awesomely fun victories, some non-tangible rewards like the respect of an important NPC, and maybe letting them decide what to do next/who the target's going to be for a bit. Those things tend to help with trsut and player empowerment.

That being said, i don't think an adversarial relationship is all bad (I prefer to use the term "competitive", but whatever). I look at it this way: at the table, we are all friends and I want the players to have fun and enjoy the game and I want them to win. But from the time the first initiative die is cast until the last enemy/challenge of the encounter is overcome, I am not their friend. I am the slavering orcs wanting to put their heads on pikes, the vile necromancer that wants to stitch them into my zombie wall, the dragon that believes their treasures should be in my hoard and their bones should be in my gullet. i play combat for keeps-- but I play fair -- and I expect them to play the same way. Outside of combat, though, it is different.
 

Railroading, GM Fiat, openly cheering for the Monsters, laughing at player failure, bad adventures that you won't give up when the players make it known they're unhappy, monsters clearly designed to exploit PC defects (when it happens too often anyways), bad decisions, crappy treasure, constant streams of hostile NPCs, over-reliance on die rolling in inappropriate situations ("I want to sell this Sword" "Ok, roll a Diplomacy check...Oops, bad roll. He kicks you out of his shop")...

Those sort of things tend to increase the 'us vs. GM' attitude.

Are you doing those sorts of things?
 

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