How to hide from True Seeing?

[Bauglir]

One other idea, why True Seeing is not information gathering...

If you cast the spell and then close your eyes, you obtain no information. So the spell itself does not give you any information.

Bye
Thanee

You could say the same about casting Contact Other Plane, then sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "La La La I'm not listening"...

 

[Thanee]

Well, I don't see what that would change with the spell. It's not like there is some deep voice coming out of the sky and talking to you.

Contact Other Plane gives you an additional "sense", True Seeing does not, it just enhances one that you already have.

The difference I see here is, that some spells gather information directly, while others give you the ability to process your perceptory input better, thereby surely obtaining more information, too, but they help to gather information only indirectly.

Mind Blank protects against the first, but not against the latter IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Bauglir]

The difference I see here is, that some spells gather information directly, while others give you the ability to process your perceptory input better.

Assuming that you mean True Seeing to be the latter here, this would imply that one could, with training, perceive everything shown by True Seeing, without the use of magic.

True Seeing shows the user things they would otherwise not be able to see. It can be said to gather information on magical effects within the spell's range, and present it to the caster as a visual report.

Personally I limit "gather information" to the evidently-information-gathering divinations, such as Contact Other Plane, but I can easily see the case for the other side under the RAW, as above.

 

[Thanee]

Assuming that you mean True Seeing to be the latter here, this would imply that one could, with training, perceive everything shown by True Seeing, without the use of magic.

Why would that be?

How can one train to pierce illusions, or see invisible things!?

True Seeing shows the user things they would otherwise not be able to see.

That's the point where I think a more accurate terminology is needed. True Seeing does not show you anything. It lets you see something. That's the difference I am talking about.

It can be said to gather information on magical effects within the spell's range, and present it to the caster as a visual report.

Personally I limit "gather information" to the evidently-information-gathering divinations, such as Contact Other Plane, but I can easily see the case for the other side under the RAW, as above.

Of course, I don't think I said anything else. Just tried to explain, why I think True Seeing is not an information gathering divination.

It does not give you any information, really. It only negates magic which hinders your ability to obtain information. But the information you gain is nothing you could not normally gain, if the hindering magic wasn't there.

Information gathering divinations, however, actually give you information about the subject.

Otherwise even light would be an information gathering spell, or fireball (can it burn or not?), tho certainly not divinations.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Bauglir]

It does not give you any information, really. It only negates magic which hinders your ability to obtain information. But the information you gain is nothing you could not normally gain, if the hindering magic wasn't there.

I think this is the key point. True Seeing does not interfere with the hindering magic in any way (compare it to say, Invisibility Purge) - it merely enables the user to see past that magic. Surely "there's an invisible wizard in the corner" is information, imparted to the caster as a direct function of True Seeing?

 

[Thanee]

That's the whole point. I don't believe it works that way.

I think it goes more like this.

You look into the corner, where the invisible wizard is.
True Seeing negates Invisibility.
You see the wizard.

If you take away True Seeing and Invisibility, the situation is the same.

You look into the corner, where the wizard is.
You see the wizard.

True Seeing does not tell you there is an invisible wizard in the corner, it just allows you to see the wizard normally, since it negates the Invisibility. Thus it only interacts with the magic, not with the wizard.

Well, that's how I see it at least.

Bye
Thanee

 

[MerakSpielman]

But if you have True Seeing on, are you aware that the wizard is invisible? Do you still see illusions, but are aware that they are not illusions?

If True Seeing really functioned like you interpret, Thanee, you should be totally unaware that the wizard in the corner is invisible, or that an illusion exists.

Think about the following scenario: You have True Seeing on. You turn a corner and ten feet in front of you is an illusury wall. If True Seeing simply negated the illusion, you would walk through it, totally unaware of its existence. If, however, you percieve the illusion, but are aware that it is an illusion, then True Seeing has functioned NOT as an illusion-negator, but as an information-gathering spell. You can now impart this information to your companions.

The same with invisibility. If you had True Seeing going, and an invisible rogue was approaching, and if all True Seeing did was negate the invisibility, it might not even occur to you to warn your companions. After all, you are unaware the rogue has invisibility on, he's right there, you can see him. It might take you a while to realize your companions can't. If, however, you are aware that the rogue has an invisibility spell on, you would know to warn your companions, and you could do things like pretend you don't see him to lure him closer. It will have become an information-gathering spell, not a form of counter-magic.

 

[Droid101]

This is a neat mechanic. I like the fact that it adds another useful aspect to Heighten Spell. I'm not sure it would work with all effects, though. Could you Heighten a Continual Flame spell to 4th-level and create a torch that defeats Deeper Darkness, for example?

Of course that works. A player in my game has a sword that emits a Daylight spell heightened to 9th level. Can't be beat!

 

[Lamoni]

I know it's been hotly debated ad nauseum around here, but that certainly suggests to me that mind blank trumps true seeing.

It seems like bringing up this point has also changed the topic so it can be debated some more.

There is a case for either side of the issue. Whatever you like more is what you will rule in your game. Now, my favorite way to negate true seeing is by giving myself total concealment by placing something between myself and the true-seeing guy. Wall spells work very well as well as Tiny Hut. However those spells are quite defensive and you probably have no need to negate true seeing in that instance... of course if your whole party is invisible and one person is shouting to his companions where each of you are it is easy to just place a wall around that person.

As far as taking the initiative and getting past someone with true seeing, I believe the best way is to use dust of disappearance (as someone already mentioned). The only problem I see with true seeing is that it renders my character's illusion spells quite useless. If there was only a way to imbue your illusions with shadow so they were partially real and therefore no longer negated... at a price of course, I just don't know what price that would be... either a metamagic feat, creating new shadow illusion spells (at higher level), or creating a prestige class with that ability at high levels.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Is somebody with True Seeing still affected by Phantasmal Killer?