How to kills a dragon... Help with a Warforged Juggernaut build?

[Ragnar_Lodbrok]

One thing I was considering was trying to take the anti-magic warrior approach. Perhaps something like a continual anti-magic field, and relying on the character's natural abilities and bonuses. This might neutralize all of a dragon's various spells, items and magical defenses. I also considered using the Vow of Poverty feat in combination, since no magic items would work with this approach anyway.

Bad idea. Dragons have a solid Full Attack, reach for buffed-up attacks from outside the field, and their flight is mundane. Even without spells, it's easily able to tear apart an underequipped character. And that's what VoP forces you to be.

Why? Tome of Battle is one of the most well-balanced, best-written, and generally good books written in all of 3.5.

Because some GMs don't want to read through and learn an interesting and fun addition to the system?

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Because some GMs don't want to read through and learn an interesting and fun addition to the system?

Likewise, some players don't like feeling entirely useless because a DM allowed someone else to play something (could be something from ToB, could be comparing a core fighter to a core druid) that did indeed make the other character's efforts look irrelevant next to another's. Other players having much better knowledge of the game can ruin some tables too. Thus, some DMs ban stuff like that not because they themselves don't know it, but because they want to have a game where the players are on more of an even playing field so no one is left in the dust as long as the DM accommodates the characters played.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Likewise, some players don't like feeling entirely useless because a DM allowed someone else to play something (could be something from ToB, could be comparing a core fighter to a core druid) that did indeed make the other character's efforts look irrelevant next to another's. Other players having much better knowledge of the game can ruin some tables too. Thus, some DMs ban stuff like that not because they themselves don't know it, but because they want to have a game where the players are on more of an even playing field so no one is left in the dust as long as the DM accommodates the characters played.

I think if your DM is allowing books for one player and banning them for others, you've got bigger problems than someone not thinking to flip through the books.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

I think if your DM is allowing books for one player and banning them for others, you've got bigger problems than someone not thinking to flip through the books.

That's not what I mean to say, or thought I typed to mean. In my opinion it's nonsense to ban one thing for a certain player but leave it open for others, because that does indeed show a greater problem. No, what I was trying to say is a DM has every right to ban certain parts of books for everyone, such as my last DM banning Divine Metamagic. He left open plenty of other stuff from Complete Divine, but DMM was definitely banned because my DM was staunch about metamagic needing the appropriate level spell slot adjustment based on the metmagic. It worked fine for me since I didn't really use metamagic with my cleric (being allowed to spontaneously cast cleric spells kinda changes things. Yeah, he didn't think things through very well).

 

[Imaginari]

So I have a bit of an update. First, my DM is allowing ToB, I just don't want to push my luck my dipping into three separate classes. But I don't know the book very well. I've read the crusader is pretty good for a tank, any other suggestions on builds or power that might good against dragons?

Next up, I got my starting level wrong, I'll be starting at about 15th.

On a cool note, the DM has allowed me to upgrade to size Large with accompanying stats mods from the Monster Manual (+8 str, -2 dex, -1 att/AC, +4 con, +2 natural armor) at the cost of +1 LA. This seems like a no brainer, but do you think it is fair? There is a part of me that likes the idea of roleplaying a large warforged, stats aside.

Next, I did find and come up with a build for a Warforged Juggernaut Frenzied Berserker ( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Warforged_raging_frenzied_Juggernaut_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build) ). I went Barb (lion) 1, Fighter 4 (for the extra feats), Juggernaut 5, Frenzied Berserker 4. On the downside, almost every feat is taken up by pre-requisites. I had to take 4 fighter levels just so I could take Endurance (useless) and Steadfast Determination so I wouldn't kill the whole party. Shock Trooper I imagine would be up next when I can afford it.

But I'm not totally sold this is the right way to go. I'm still thinking I might be about to do better with ToB than to go Berserker, and save a number of feats in the process.

On yet another note, the DM also was okay with me taking a half-golem template at the cost of +3 LA. Here I'm not sure if it is worth it. You get magic immunity (both good and bad), but you have some major penalties to deal with. Thoughts? It seems like it would be redundant with Juggernaut, so perhaps I could go yet another route and be freed up to take a different prestige class. Ideas certainly welcome.

Here's the Half-golem template:

Half-Golem – Iron (a creature that has one or more limbs replaced with animated iron. Must make a Will save or become a
Construct) (MM2 p209) (3.5up p34)+
One or more limbs replaced with those of an Iron Golem. Acquired Template that can be applied to an Animal, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid.
Natural Armor bonus +1l
DR 15 / adamantine
Str +12
Dex –2
Int –6
Con +4 –or– n/a
Cha –6
CR +3
Able to exhale a 10’ cube of (1d4 Con / Death) poisonous gas every 1d4+1 rounds. Constitution-based DC. The gas persists for 1 round.
Vulnerability to rust attacks, including Rusting Grasp.
Immune to spells, spell-like abilities, & supernatural effects except
- Electricity effects the creature as a Slow spell for 3 rounds.
- Fire effects heals the creature 1hp per 3 damage & breaks any Slow effect.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

"Fair" is in the eye of the beholder. LA +1 for a size and stat increase would likely be a no-brainer for most martial types. Consider the original Half-ogre in Savage Species was LA +1 for +6 strength, -2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, and -2 cha and Large size. It was updated to La +2 in Races of Destiny. Looking at that might give you an idea of what the designers considered okay for the game.

Question: Is the LA Buyoff rule from Unearthed Arcana (or the SRD) in play? If so, absolutely get a +1 or +2 LA. If not, you should still be good with a size increase at LA +1 since the stats will mean you actually gain health (and strength of course), and since your build is based on doing damage more strength is good strength.

I recommend not taking any wikis as worthwhile for D&D stuff since almost anyone can "update" them and the sources are often missing or incorrect. Likewise, the build might not actually be optimized, though it certainly does a good job.

I don't recommend going for any half-golem template. WFJ already makes you a lot like a construct anyway, and you're going to want that Con score if you don't make the will save. Note that you might run into problems with Repair spells if you're using Frenzy and dip below 0 HP, since the spell says it only works on constructs at 1 HP or more.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

So I have a bit of an update. First, my DM is allowing ToB, I just don't want to push my luck my dipping into three separate classes. But I don't know the book very well.

I don't see why multiple classes would be a problem, but okay.

I've read the crusader is pretty good for a tank, any other suggestions on builds or power that might good against dragons?

In D&D, there is no such thing as a tank.

On a cool note, the DM has allowed me to upgrade to size Large with accompanying stats mods from the Monster Manual (+8 str, -2 dex, -1 att/AC, +4 con, +2 natural armor) at the cost of +1 LA. This seems like a no brainer, but do you think it is fair? There is a part of me that likes the idea of roleplaying a large warforged, stats aside.

That's... massively more powerful than any other LA+1 race outside of Dragon Magazines.

Next, I did find and come up with a build for a Warforged Juggernaut Frenzied Berserker ( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Warforged_raging_frenzied_Juggernaut_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build) ).

Dandwiki is a toxic site. I, nor most people I've talked to on the subject, ever even click links to it.

I went Barb (lion) 1, Fighter 4 (for the extra feats), Juggernaut 5, Frenzied Berserker 4. On the downside, almost every feat is taken up by pre-requisites. I had to take 4 fighter levels just so I could take Endurance (useless) and Steadfast Determination so I wouldn't kill the whole party. Shock Trooper I imagine would be up next when I can afford it.

That's a boring, one-dimensional build that's far too easy to shut down.

One of the beauties of ToB is it's hard to shut down. There's an item in DotU that shuts down almost all chargers flat-out. A dragon with proper equipment or spells could simply ignore a charger without much effort. Also, I dislike any charger that isn't an Orc. Headlong Rush is just too good.

But I'm not totally sold this is the right way to go. I'm still thinking I might be about to do better with ToB than to go Berserker, and save a number of feats in the process.

You would be. Of course, you could try Runescarred Berserker. It's a PrC that kicks some serious ass, although you'd have to drop WFJ to get all the fun toys in it, so you might not want to, and there is the fluff problem of how a robot would scar itself.

On yet another note, the DM also was okay with me taking a half-golem template at the cost of +3 LA. Here I'm not sure if it is worth it. You get magic immunity (both good and bad), but you have some major penalties to deal with. Thoughts? It seems like it would be redundant with Juggernaut, so perhaps I could go yet another route and be freed up to take a different prestige class. Ideas certainly welcome.

It's terrible and LA sucks. Don't.

Here are a bunch of good builds to look at, even if it's only to get ideas.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Cyclone, I'm glad we can both agree on a few things, such as how bad that wiki is. (I won't even name it lest it come up in searches).

Multiple classes might be an issue if the DM is one of those types that think multiple classes means munchkin or something similar. The DM might instead enforce XP penalties for multiclassing.

The WoW-style tank can kind of work using various things, but it can be difficult to do if your DM isn't humoring you on a tank build. If a monster finds its attacks aren't really hitting a target that isn't doing much damage to it (usually called a turtle), but another target that's squishy is hitting it for a lot, chances are the monster is going to attack the squishy character because attacking the well-armored character not being much of a threat could get it killed by the squishy, and it's usually in the monster's best interests to live.

Mindless Rage is the closest thing to a reliable taunt I know of, and it's not even all that reliable actually because it only works against certain creatures, it has both a save and SR, and those creature types it would normally work on can get immunity to it through various means.

If you can't reliably taunt a creature to attack you that tends to limit your typical "tank" abilities. You either have to make yourself a big threat and/or make others less appealing to attack. Crusaders can definitely make themselves both through maneuvers and such like Shield Block or Iron Guard's Glare. There is also a fighter variant from Dragon Magazine issue 310 called Bodyguard that can grant an adjacent ally its shield bonus to AC (that stacks with the character's own shield bonuses!), or his Combat Expertise bonus to AC, or both.

Another form of tanking is called Battlefield Control. Basically you make it difficult or impossible for an enemy to harm you or your group. Martial types usually go for a Lockdown build that prevents opponents from moving and taking actions. This is often achieved through things like Thicket of Blades, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still, plus a reach weapon. Tripping using Improved Trip and Knock-down can also limit enemies.

Cyclone, I don't see anything in DotU that directly nullifies charging. Could you perhaps give the name of the item? Though there is the Ring of Anticipation on page 100 for 6,000g that allows the user to always roll twice on initiative, which could just put an end to the encounter. Perhaps you were thinking of Steadfast Boots on page 138 of the MiC? That doesn't really shut down charges unless the damage is enough to kill the enemy, but for 1,400g it's a steal.

I imagine a construct could use welds and such to mimic scarring for Runescarred Berserker. Focused heat like from a blow torch could also work. @Imaginari , the Runescarred Berserker can be found in Unapproachable East if you're interested in looking at it.

If you're worried about not being in control of a Frenzied Berserker, you might not want to play one. Yes, the damage can be phenomenal, but chances are you'll be able to do enough damage and such without it.

If you really want something insane though, you might look at Martial GOD (or how to be BSF and GOD at the same time). Basically the non-cheesy parts of that build use the Bloodstorm Blade PrC from ToB along with Knock-down and Knockback to throw melee weapons around while tripping and bull rushing opponents to move them around and keep them down. The primary cheesy part is Boomerang Daze with a generous interpretation of the Aptitude weapon enhancement in ToB (page 148) that allows one weapon to count as another for purposes of feats. Even if the Dazing stuff isn't allowed, throwing weapons around to trip and bull rush opponents is quite useful.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Cyclone, I'm glad we can both agree on a few things, such as how bad that wiki is. (I won't even name it lest it come up in searches).

I still hold by my theory that it's actually Asmodeus trying to get a foothold in reality. Only way to explain how something so vile could exist.

Multiple classes might be an issue if the DM is one of those types that think multiple classes means munchkin or something similar.

Despite it being a very clear part of the rules and 3.5's greatest strength in the game? Oh, god, that's even worse than core-only.

The DM might instead enforce XP penalties for multiclassing.

People actually use that rule? It's second only to the Alignment system as the most idiotic rule in 3.5.

Mindless Rage is the closest thing to a reliable taunt I know of, and it's not even all that reliable actually because it only works against certain creatures, it has both a save and SR, and those creature types it would normally work on can get immunity to it through various means.

It also requires you to be a caster, and if you're a caster, your mental stats are probably too high for you to even consider using that pathetic excuse for a spell.

Another form of tanking is called Battlefield Control. Basically you make it difficult or impossible for an enemy to harm you or your group. Martial types usually go for a Lockdown build that prevents opponents from moving and taking actions. This is often achieved through things like Thicket of Blades, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still, plus a reach weapon. Tripping using Improved Trip and Knock-down can also limit enemies.

The issue is that that kind of build doesn't work past level eight or so. It's too easy to just basically deny any build like that, and tripping really falls apart around there due to massive strength and inflated hit dice of any monster that's actually threatening.

But, meh, I'm just jaded, I guess, similar to how I recommend against anyone wasting money on AC.

Cyclone, I don't see anything in DotU that directly nullifies charging. Could you perhaps give the name of the item? Though there is the Ring of Anticipation on page 100 for 6,000g that allows the user to always roll twice on initiative, which could just put an end to the encounter. Perhaps you were thinking of Steadfast Boots on page 138 of the MiC? That doesn't really shut down charges unless the damage is enough to kill the enemy, but for 1,400g it's a steal.

Nope, although the Ring of Anticipation is worth noting as one of the best items in the game for its price. I'm talking about the... hell, I can't remember its name, the immediate action teleport cloak. It's only. what, 5500, and shuts down any chargers handily.

I imagine a construct could use welds and such to mimic scarring for Runescarred Berserker. Focused heat like from a blow torch could also work. @Imaginari , the Runescarred Berserker can be found in Unapproachable East if you're interested in looking at it.

Oh, hey, that's kinda a cool idea. I hadn't thought of that.

If you're worried about not being in control of a Frenzied Berserker, you might not want to play one. Yes, the damage can be phenomenal, but chances are you'll be able to do enough damage and such without it.

I do believe the traditional way to evade the problem with that is to just burn all your frenzies in the beginning of the day. I mean, it's not like you actually care about frenzy, the reason you'd ever consider taking FB is for the Power Attack.

If you really want something insane though, you might look at Martial GOD (or how to be BSF and GOD at the same time). Basically the non-cheesy parts of that build use the Bloodstorm Blade PrC from ToB along with Knock-down and Knockback to throw melee weapons around while tripping and bull rushing opponents to move them around and keep them down. The primary cheesy part is Boomerang Daze with a generous interpretation of the Aptitude weapon enhancement in ToB (page 148) that allows one weapon to count as another for purposes of feats. Even if the Dazing stuff isn't allowed, throwing weapons around to trip and bull rush opponents is quite useful.

Aptitude abuse? Ugh, that's... I dunno, it's blatantly cheesy, and not even in an interesting, funny, or particularly cool way.

Also, if you're abusing it, you should just go balls-out. What's the point of blatantly abusing poorly-written rules if you don't do it with style?

 

[Imaginari]

[MENTION=6750006]Cyclone_Joker[/MENTION]

I don't see why multiple classes would be a problem, but okay.

It isn't multi-classing per sa that is the issue. I just need to be careful about walking that fine line regarding cheese. Though we probably have a difference of opinion, I'd be considered that Idiot Crusader would come off that way. But I don't think multi-class in and of itself is a problem.

In D&D, there is no such thing as a tank.

I should probably have used a different term. I mean "tank" simply to mean a front line fighter can take a whole lot of punishment and still keep on fighting. I didn't mean it in the MMO sense of maintaining aggro.

That's a boring, one-dimensional build that's far too easy to shut down.

Well thanks at least for the cander. It was my first pass. I'm open to better suggestions if you have them, assuming they fit the requirements. But more in my follow-up post below.

You would be. Of course, you could try Runescarred Berserker. It's a PrC that kicks some serious ass, although you'd have to drop WFJ to get all the fun toys in it, so you might not want to, and there is the fluff problem of how a robot would scar itself.

I actually considered the Runescared Berserker, but didn't necessarily want to drop Warforged Juggernaut. What makes it cool from your perspective?

Here are a bunch of good builds to look at, even if it's only to get ideas.

Thanks for the link to so many cool builds. Of the list, Robo Tackle and Heavy Crusader came the closest to fitting that I'm going for, and offered some interesting ideas. Thanks for sharing your insights.