How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[atom crash]

Why is it logical that you can you get your Dex bonuses to a Reflex save on a trap anytime, but it is not logical that you cannot get your Dex bonuses to an attack in round one even though you were not surprised? Isn't this a contradiction in rules mindset?

It is apparent to me that the designers intended for the PCs -- the heroes of the game -- to always have some chance to overcome any obstacle or escape some danger. With traps, you get your Reflex save, Dex mod intact. When rolling initiative, you can roll higher than your opponent and not get caught flat-footed. You get to add you Dex mod, and you can boost your initiative modifier with a single feat. When determining whether or not you're surprised, you can succeed at a spot or listen check, or even a sense motive check, to be aware of an opponent or an imminent attack and thus negate a surprise round.

You always have at least a chance. You're not supposed to get caught in a situation where you have no chance to succeed. Now IIRC, judging from earlier posts, it seems in your game you often get screwed over by surprise rounds and being caught flat-footed. But I don't think that's the norm in most games.

And what's difficult about imagining that, even if you're not surprised, someone else acts just a hair quicker than you?

If WotC had designed the game such that flat-footed only occurred in the surprise round and not in round one, would you instead of giving examples why the current design is good, give examples as to why the alternative design is good?

You don't always get a surprise round, so that would make no sense. (It would also seriously nerf the rogue.) How could you be caught flat-footed in a surprise round and then be able to react before you ever act in round one? It is possible to act on a surprise round and not be flat-footed in round one. It is perfectly reasonable that flat-footedness present in the surprise round carries over into round one until you act.

You seem to be adapting your answer to fit the rules as opposed to adapting your answer to fit logic.

I'm merely using the path of least resistance to reconcile common sense and a ruleset I find adequate for covering most situations.

Re-wiring the surprise round and flat-footedness is going to open a whole mess of worms. It's going to destroy combat reflexes as a viable feat. It's going to nerf the barbarian's and rogue's uncanny dodge, among other things. And since I don't find an overwhelming fault with the current rules, I don't think it's worth the effort to revise them.

I know you disagree. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I get the feeling from reading this thread that some people are not instituting the surprise round properly with appropriate spot/listen checks; For that matter, rolling the appropriate encounter starting distance.

As for the King's guards, it would make sense for there to be covert, royalist rogues defending him as well. They would need a decent spot to catch an invisable assassin etc...

Certain feats and skills could well be demanded before you can act as the King's guard within a fantasy setting. You'd be trained & tested to make sure you are not especially weak to charms, be alert, react swiftly to danger and being always a menace with the weapon at hand. If you can't do the above you're not entirely suitable but your other skills may cancel the deficiencies out.

 

[William_2]

I was unclear on that question.

The question is:

What is to prevent the King's Guard from starting combat by readying an action to attack any partitioner who disobeys the rules and gets within 20 feet of the King?


It is not readying out of combat, it is starting combat (even if nobody else is aware that combat started) by readying an action.

The answer to this question is always going to be the same: readying an action is something you can do on your turn once initiative has been determined. It is a specific game mechanic: it is not meant to be used for situations before initiative where a character is "getting ready" in any of the several senses that they might do so.

In this case, the guard has the intention of attacking anyone within 20 feet, say; and when someone comes within 20 feet, the guard can test their reflexes to see if they succeed. There is no reason why intention should automatically carry success. The attacker has intentions as well, after all- to dart 20 feet past a guard. Either one might succeed in their intentions, based on their reflexes- what initiative is designed, and works well, for determining, in my view. Certainly, those are the rules; they can be house ruled, but I didn't think that was the topic here.

 

[Parlan]

It is not readying out of combat, it is starting combat (even if nobody else is aware that combat started) by readying an action.

Your cure is worse than the disease.

What's to stop PCs from "starting combat" all the time in order to keep readied actions?

Even in your 12 guardsmen example, let's look at it from the thief's point of view:

He has to beat 12 people's initiative rolls,

To get a single SA on the king.

When he gets charged/full attacked by the 12 guards on THEIR init he's probably going to die.

And the king could negate all of the Sa damage by springing for Armor of Fortification.

Why is this such a killer tactic for the assassin again?

 

[William_2]

PRECISELY.

In combat, they CAN protect him in that scenario.

Out of combat, even if they are prepared, they CANNOT. All because of how the rules of "in combat" and "out of combat" are written.

That is the entire point that you are avoiding.

I think the point is that the rules allow for them to EITHER fail or succeed in protecting someone, where you seem to prefer that the defender get the edge. That is just not how these rules work. If they want the edge, they should make it happen- improved initiative, a complete shield wall- there are options. Not unrealistic, to me. An open 20 foot space is not much of an effort at protecting anyone.

 

[brehobit]

OK, here is the real question. What causes combat to "start". Can a PC ask for things to go in initiative order _before_ the door opens? What if two PCs race to open the door? Doesn't that cause them to need to roll initative? And in that case wouldn't the PCs not be flatfooted once the door was open?

I think the flatfooted thing is a good idea, but the implementation is a bit wacky. I personally don't do the flatfooted thing if the PCs know what and from where the threat will be coming.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Do I really need to post a link to the rules about playing nice and being civil?

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[KarinsDad]

It is apparent to me that the designers intended for the PCs -- the heroes of the game -- to always have some chance to overcome any obstacle or escape some danger. With traps, you get your Reflex save, Dex mod intact. When rolling initiative, you can roll higher than your opponent and not get caught flat-footed. You get to add you Dex mod, and you can boost your initiative modifier with a single feat. When determining whether or not you're surprised, you can succeed at a spot or listen check, or even a sense motive check, to be aware of an opponent or an imminent attack and thus negate a surprise round.

You always have at least a chance. You're not supposed to get caught in a situation where you have no chance to succeed. Now IIRC, judging from earlier posts, it seems in your game you often get screwed over by surprise rounds and being caught flat-footed. But I don't think that's the norm in most games.

And what's difficult about imagining that, even if you're not surprised, someone else acts just a hair quicker than you?

I think the point that I am making that you are missing (because I have stated it numerous times now) is that I have no problem with someone being a hair quicker than someone else.

I have a problem with the Fighter and Wizard being prepared for an attack by the Rogue and the Rogue races 30 feet past the Fighter in Round One and the Fighter cannot do anything about it like he can in Round Two and the Rogue still gets a sneak attack against the Wizard which he wouldn't in Round Two.

Note: This is not just about Rogues btw.

Game mechanics, to me, should be consistent once everyone is aware. The way the game is written, characters who lose initiative are still effectively "surprised" (i.e. cannot AoO, lose their Dex bonuses, can be sneak attacked by opponents right in front of them who they have been wary about for 5 minutes, etc.).

This also happens if you have been watching your opponent from 60 feet away for the last minute and he suddenly starts charging towards you.

You can jump back from a sudden trap with no problem, but your 30 Dex doesn't help at all if your opponent wins Initiative. Huh?

Not only that, a character can be so surprised that his opponent gets a standard action plus another round of action against him and he is flat-footed both times. This goes against my idea of fairness (i.e. not only can he attack twice before the other character can respond, but the second character is flat-footed both times).

I'm merely using the path of least resistance to reconcile common sense and a ruleset I find adequate for covering most situations.

Re-wiring the surprise round and flat-footedness is going to open a whole mess of worms. It's going to destroy combat reflexes as a viable feat. It's going to nerf the barbarian's and rogue's uncanny dodge, among other things. And since I don't find an overwhelming fault with the current rules, I don't think it's worth the effort to revise them.

That is why I named this thread "legally". Nobody has yet posted anything that prevents a character from "initiating combat" by readying an action where nobody else is aware that combat has started. Not all readied actions are visible. "I step back if he comes near me." "I stab with my halberd if he approaches the King.".

This would also require a conscious decision by a player to inform the DM that he is readying an action, especially in those situations where the player feels that his character is threatened or something.

One thing about all of this that is nonsensical to me is that you can perform certain actions "within combat" (e.g. readying an action) that you cannot perform "out of combat". So if you cannot perform it out of combat, why not just start combat?

I know you disagree. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

We can do that.

 

[DarkMaster]

The argument that the high level rogue who trained all of his life is able to react quicker in round one, but not in other rounds is ALSO weak. IMO.


In round one, everyone whose initiative he beat is unable to fully defend or AoO.

In round two, everyone whose initiative he STILL beat are able to fully defend and AoO.

Wrong he always react quicker, he always act before and his opponent only respond.

The figther with the highest initiative is always the one having the chance to strike the N+1 blow first. at 15 level in a two round combat that means he striked 8 times while his opponent only striked 4, If that's not being quicker I wonder what it is.

Don't forget that a round usually last 6 seconds of exchanging blow or what not. The rule don't specify if the action occured in a millisecond or took the whole 6 second. It's up to the DM/player to decide. As a Dm when the rogue makes a flatfoot attack I usually says that, he leaps out of the shadow while the enemy was looking around for him, that quarter of a second where is head was looking the other side was enough for the rogue to take advantage and deliver his deadly attack. If the enemy is still standing, the second after receiving the blow he engage the rogue (thus roll an attack) So the round could be described like this. 1 second the rogue attack the other 5 second they exchanged blow. Now the rogue can't sneak him anymore since he cannot take advantage of his enemy not fully getting his attention on him (unless of course one of his compagnion flank the said enemy).

 

[Caliban]

Where?

DMG, page 25-26: Adjudicating the Ready Action, last paragraph, first line: "Don't allow players to use the ready action outside of combat."

Apparently it's ok for monsters.

Let's talk reasonableness here.

Is it reasonable to do this when you are outside a dungeon door and expect enemies within?

Is it reasonable to do this when you are guarding the King?

I don't think anyone has a problem with not doing this "all day long". But when the players think "something is up", what in the rules prevents this?

The same section of the DMG does say that if you specifically prepare yourself to respond to an action outside of combat (what would be a Ready action inside of combat), and it occurs, then it is unlikely that you would be suprised, and would roll initiative normally.

Is it reasonable for the PCs to tie a rope around another PC and declare that they are readying an action to pull him from harm if he steps on a pit trap?

Just make sure you have less than 10' of slack in the rope. That way he can't fall far enough to hurt himself.