How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[Saeviomagy]

A high level normal Guard (i.e. without Combat Reflexes) who trained for combat all of his life and is prepared for an attack helplessly watches as the disguised Assassin runs 30 feet and kills the King.

A man in australia ran at the podium upon which prince charles and the prime minister were standing. He was holding a realistic looking rubber gun. He got close enough to tackle one of them I recall.

So this IS what happens in real life.

Also - what sort of dumbass GUARD doesn't get combat reflexes? What the hell did he DO with all his feats?

Now - on to why "readying outside of combat is a bad idea".

1. The party always readies when they expect trouble.

2. The monster always readies when he expects trouble.

3. Random third party doesn't ready - he's not expecting trouble.

Readied (ie - partial) actions occur in dex order, followed by random third party on his initiative - he gets a full round of actions.

How does this differ from normal?

1. The party expects trouble

2. The monster expects trouble

3. random third party does not expect trouble.

Groups 1 and 2 get a surprise round, determined by initiative roll. 3 does not. In fact, he may miss a second round.

What's the sum difference?

If you can ready outside of combat
1. Everyone effectively takes 10 on initiative, but people who aren't expecting trouble go last.

2. People NOT expecting trouble get a WHOLE ROUND TO ACT, but those READY for trouble only get a partial action. Normally someone NOT expecting trouble would end up getting 1 full round action to everyone elses full round + partial.

3. You get really, really stupid chains. For instance:

In the "two groups of people meet and the situation is tense" scenario.

Group 1 readies to attack if group 2 attacks. Group 2 readies to attack if group 1 attacks.

Now - someone in group 2 attacks.

Group 1 therefore get their readied actions. But they're attacking! That means that group 2 get THEIR readied actions FIRST!

So group 2 go first. Except the guy who actually initiated everything and attacked - he goes LAST, AFTER the guys that he jumped.

He would have been better off to ready his action for when his buddies attacked, then used a free action to yell "attack!", then group 1 would probably respond as if it was an attack, then HIS group would ALL get the jump on group 1. By yelling out his intentions before attacking, he has INCREASED his chances of getting the jump on his foes.

In short - it's dumb. Really dumb.

If people are expecting trouble, they get the surprise round. If they're not, they don't. This is basically entirely in the realm of the DM to decide.

Regardless, they're flatfooted until their first init score comes up.

And effective royal guards have combat reflexes. It's not like there are any limitations at all on who can take it. It's a feat with NO prerequisites.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think the point is that the rules allow for them to EITHER fail or succeed in protecting someone, where you seem to prefer that the defender get the edge. That is just not how these rules work. If they want the edge, they should make it happen- improved initiative, a complete shield wall- there are options. Not unrealistic, to me. An open 20 foot space is not much of an effort at protecting anyone.

It has nothing to do with a defenisve edge. I prefer that the edge is the same for all rounds of combat, not that things you can do in round two cannot be done in round one or vice versa.

I prefer that the monster cannot charge 60 feet past 24 opponents and hit someone without anyone being able to stop it (granted, this is an extreme example, but it illustrates the point).

Do you know how FAR 60 feet is?

 

[KarinsDad]

DMG, page 25-26: Adjudicating the Ready Action, last paragraph, first line: "Don't allow players to use the ready action outside of combat."

Apparently it's ok for monsters.

 

[KarinsDad]

A man in australia ran at the podium upon which prince charles and the prime minister were standing. He was holding a realistic looking rubber gun. He got close enough to tackle one of them I recall.

So this IS what happens in real life.

Did he have 5 guards basically between him and his targets, or was it a wide open space?

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Does not the DMG give guidelines for situation bonuses to initative, such as training a crossbow on a doorway when you know the enemy are coming?

I am pretty sure that is how my 3.0 DMG rules it, giving +2 bonuses. Of course if the crossbowman has a decent hide and has improved intiative/good dex, he has a good chance of getting a surprise _and_ winning initiative. If he's a rogue he may get 2 SA shots off.

I think the case would be that of if one side has a reason for a significant advantage, they could get a +2 bonus. The assassin vs the guards would not qualify and without other circumstances I think it is going to stretch all player's suspension of disbelief to see a lone d6 HD rogue race up into the midst of a pack of d8 HD warriors. He better have a fanatical back story or similar, otherwise the players will (rightly) riot.

 

[Saeviomagy]

You can jump back from a sudden trap with no problem, but your 30 Dex doesn't help at all if your opponent wins Initiative. Huh?

It helps you win initiative. If you fail your reflex save, you fall into the trap. If you 'fail' your initiative check, you fall into your opponents trap. Where's the difference?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Did he have 5 guards basically between him and his targets, or was it a wide open space?

A bunch (possibly around about 5) of guards basically between him and his targets if my memory serves me (and the reports I've just read all seem to back me on this, although I can't find any photos or film). And it was a starters pistol. And the guy did fire it once past the guards.

 

[coyote6]

It would then have played out like:

PC: I draw my sword and attack!
DM: You're just going to draw in plain sight and attack the guards?
PC: Yes!
DM: Fine - your hand moves towards your sword's hilt. The guards notice the obviously hostile gesture. Everyone roll initiative.

I think I'd just give the fighter a surprise round -- he then has a partial action. If he doesn't have Quick Draw, he's going to spend that partial action drawing (or moving and drawing) his sword. No attack, barring QD. And then it's initiative time.

I'd also probably give the guards a Spot or Sense Motive roll to realize the fighter was going for his sword; if they made, they'd get to act in the surprise round, too. And, if they beat the fighter in initiative, yes, they'd get the jump on him. Then they could attack pre-emptively, or ready an action to attack, or ready their own weapons, or whatever.

I don't have a problem with someone beating someone to the draw, even though the other person tries to draw first. It happens all the time in Westerns.

 

[Pickaxe]

I think the point that I am making that you are missing (because I have stated it numerous times now) is that I have no problem with someone being a hair quicker than someone else.

I have a problem with the Fighter and Wizard being prepared for an attack by the Rogue and the Rogue races 30 feet past the Fighter in Round One and the Fighter cannot do anything about it like he can in Round Two and the Rogue still gets a sneak attack against the Wizard which he wouldn't in Round Two.

They're not prepared, they're anticipating; they're aware. That doesn't mean they get to act first or react preemptively, in the game or in RL. The game mechanic simulates a special advantage to acting before any of your opponents, an advantage you lose once everyone is acting. Ever play the game where you put your hand out and someone else has to slap it before you pull it away? That's a game of intitiative; you're both "prepared" as you would say it, but that ensures success for neither of you. Combat starts with the slap game, then moves into arm wrestling.

You can jump back from a sudden trap with no problem, but your 30 Dex doesn't help at all if your opponent wins Initiative. Huh?

You also get your Dex bonus to your Hide and Move Silently checks, as well as to lots of other things. Why should the mechanic for avoiding a trap or hiding be the same as that for combat?

Not only that, a character can be so surprised that his opponent gets a standard action plus another round of action against him and he is flat-footed both times. This goes against my idea of fairness (i.e. not only can he attack twice before the other character can respond, but the second character is flat-footed both times).

Consider the circumstances under which this will occur. If this happens, it's due either to:

1) Luck (i.e., die rolls)
2) Large differences in initiative bonuses
3) Combination of both

In addition, the unlucky party must be unaware of its attacker.

If we take all of the examples listed in this thread and assume that all of the participants are average humans (Dex 10), then it's luck. The would-be assassin lunges for the king, roll initiative. If he beats all of the guards and the king, he gets his sneak attack. His chance of success is small. Do you deny that there should be any chance of success?

Now give the assassin an 18 Dex and Improved Initiative. Yes, he will probably beat everyone on his initiative roll, but his Dex is exceptional for a human, and he has a feat, a remarkable ability, so his chance of success is much greater. But why shouldn't it be? If he can beat 10 guards on initiative, then he gets his chance. That means 10 rolls of 8 plus the assassin's roll or lower for a happy assassin, assuming no Dex bonus for the guards. That's by no means automatic.

That is why I named this thread "legally". Nobody has yet posted anything that prevents a character from "initiating combat" by readying an action where nobody else is aware that combat has started. Not all readied actions are visible. "I step back if he comes near me." "I stab with my halberd if he approaches the King.".

Fine. He approaches the king; roll intiative. If the guard wins, his "readied" action goes off. But he only gets to act on his initiative roll.

I have a problem with a Fighter pulling his weapon to attack and that initiates combat and he is flatfooted at the time.

Or, what if he already had his weapon out and decides to attack?

On round one, the guards win initiative and even though he started the combat, he not only cannot attack first (which might be reasonable in some cases, but not most of the time), but he cannot AoO and attempt to prevent the guards from surrounding him and getting flank bonuses.

I'm surprised that you have a problem with this. Aren't the guards doing exactly what you wanted to happen when you started this thread? They are "prepared" for an attack, they see someone drawing a sword, and (if they roll well) they get to attack him at advantage.

--Axe

 

[brehobit]

Sorry to beat the same drum, but why can't a PC start combat (go into initiative) before the bad guys show up? Its just a really weird concept that a character will be more prepared for a threat that appears in the middle of a fight then one he is expecting through a door at a specific time.