How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[Ferrix]

It has nothing to do with a defenisve edge. I prefer that the edge is the same for all rounds of combat, not that things you can do in round two cannot be done in round one or vice versa.

I prefer that the monster cannot charge 60 feet past 24 opponents and hit someone without anyone being able to stop it (granted, this is an extreme example, but it illustrates the point).

Do you know how FAR 60 feet is?

Ever seen some guy go barreling down a crowded street? Seems like almost everyone he encounters is surprised as he nearly knocks them over running past. They failed their spot/listen check or even if they did notice him they couldn't react quick enough (lower initiative). Now the one guy who gets out of the way, he noticed him and reacted quicker. Seems like a pretty likely thing to happen.

This also happens if you have been watching your opponent from 60 feet away for the last minute and he suddenly starts charging towards you.

Actually, this wouldn't be a surprise round, if it is, you are using the surprise round incorrectly. Basically, the second the opponent decides to start charging, you roll initiative. If you win, you see him about to charge and react accordingly. If he wins, by the time you notice his charge you don't have time to react accordingly.

I have a problem with the Fighter and Wizard being prepared for an attack by the Rogue and the Rogue races 30 feet past the Fighter in Round One and the Fighter cannot do anything about it like he can in Round Two and the Rogue still gets a sneak attack against the Wizard which he wouldn't in Round Two.

You are too strictly dissociating the rounds for one in this example and don't give the preconditions for the round.

The preconditions for this would be say the fighter and wizard are walking down a hall, the rogue rounds a corner 30 feet ahead. Fighter and wizard see the rogue, rogue sees fighter and wizard (thus no surprise round). Initiative is rolled, rogue wins.

The fighter and wizard believe* they are prepared for the rogue they see, however the rogue wins initiative and gets the upper hand the first round and bolts past the fighter who although he believed he was prepared, wasn't and sneak attacks the wizard who also lost initiative.

Perhaps knowing they are in a hostile thieve's guild or whatever, they would normally be hostile to anything they encounter.

Differently, say the characters are seventy feet apart in a courtyard. Both parties see each other. Initiative is rolled. Rogue wins initiative gets to move first, double moves forward past the fighter who doesn't have time to react, but doesn't reach the wizard. Fighter & Wizard engage, combat continues as normal.

Again different: parties 90 feet apart, parties see each other. Initiative is rolled; rogue wins initiative. Rogue double moves forward, now 30 feet from wizard, 20 from fighter. Fighter & Wizard engage (fighter, say a gnome in full plate) moves fifteen feet towards the rogue and readies an attack, wizard stays put. Round 2: rogue moves towards wizard through fighters threatened area (readied attack goes off, then perhaps an AoO), finishes move to wizard, hits wizard normally.

Again different: same setup as first, rogue rounds corner but fighter & wizard don't see him. Surprise round: moves 30 feet past fighter (no AoO or readied attack despite being on their toes persay). Initiative rolled, rogue wins. Gets a full-attack in on the wizard for sneak attack. Fighter & Wizard go.

This last one, despite being now aware of the rogue, the fighter and the wizard just can't react quick enough as the rogue moves in to combat and strikes. The minute you say no flat-footed in the first round (not the surprise round), you create a situation which makes a very sudden break in time (literally). Normally: The surprise round happens before the fighter and wizard are aware, the first normal round, they are aware of the newly arrived and unexpected rogue but just don't get their defences up in time. Your version: The surprise rounds happens before the fighter and wizard are aware, the first normal round, they are aware and suddenly fully defensive at the newly arrived and unexpected rogue despite not having been able to react to the newly arrived stimulus.

Game mechanics, to me, should be consistent once everyone is aware. The way the game is written, characters who lose initiative are still effectively "surprised" (i.e. cannot AoO, lose their Dex bonuses, can be sneak attacked by opponents right in front of them who they have been wary about for 5 minutes, etc.).

I don't believe that is a problem, just because I can see someone doesn't mean I can always predict and act in counter to their actions despite how "wary" of them I may be. A friend who is standing across from me, may suddenly dart past me to do something, but that doesn't always mean I can react quick enough to get fully out of his way or stop him or anything of that sort.

 

[KarinsDad]

It helps you win initiative. If you fail your reflex save, you fall into the trap. If you 'fail' your initiative check, you fall into your opponents trap. Where's the difference?

The difference is that you are prepared for your opponent's trap.

The difference is that in round one, your opponent can move 60 feet and attack you and you are pretty much unable to react to it.

In round two, you can react all you want.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ever seen some guy go barreling down a crowded street? Seems like almost everyone he encounters is surprised as he nearly knocks them over running past. They failed their spot/listen check or even if they did notice him they couldn't react quick enough (lower initiative). Now the one guy who gets out of the way, he noticed him and reacted quicker. Seems like a pretty likely thing to happen.

You are talking surprise round here where your opponent uses the crowd to hide while he approaches. I am talking round one.

Does it still seem likely that he can run 60 feet down the same street when:

a) it is not crowded and
b) you are watching him and
c) you only have to walk through a doorway 5 feet away to get away from him?

I guess this scenario is pretty likely too. It's very possible in the game. If you have the same init mod as your opponent, the chance is 50/50 that he can attack you from 60 feet away before you can react and walk 5 feet away.

 

[KarinsDad]

Sorry to beat the same drum, but why can't a PC start combat (go into initiative) before the bad guys show up? Its just a really weird concept that a character will be more prepared for a threat that appears in the middle of a fight then one he is expecting through a door at a specific time.

Yup.

That is the problem with the rules as written.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The difference is that you are prepared for your opponent's trap.

The difference is that in round one, your opponent can move 60 feet and attack you and you are pretty much unable to react to it.

In round two, you can react all you want.

I advise altering flavor to fit the rules instead of altering rules to fit your personal flavor.

The guy can run up becuase they *arn't* prepared. They thought they were, but obviously they were not, as the dice say. Just because you say your character is prepared for something does not make it so. That's what initiative represents.

 

[William_2]

It has nothing to do with a defenisve edge. I prefer that the edge is the same for all rounds of combat, not that things you can do in round two cannot be done in round one or vice versa.

I prefer that the monster cannot charge 60 feet past 24 opponents and hit someone without anyone being able to stop it (granted, this is an extreme example, but it illustrates the point).

Do you know how FAR 60 feet is?

Well, I have a ballpark idea of how far 60 feet is...what is it in metric?

Also, IS that an example of something that can happen in round one and not others? It certainly does not seem to me to be so, as I said before. At any rate, I don't mind round one having some distinct qualities, personally, like flat-footedness. They can be house ruled away, but there is not much doubt that they are there in the rules. I can see not liking them, but things have to start somehow, and I quite like the current system.

 

[atom crash]

KarinsDad, all the situations you put forth are fairly well covered by the DMG, pg. 21-26. I'll just give the highlights since I can't post 5 pages of text here:

-- Combat is a big part of the game. The DM's main job is running combat.
-- To start an encounter, determine which side is aware of the other side. Either do a surprise round or have both sides roll initiative.
-- Remember that all actions are happening simultaneously, but for ease of play actions are resolved by initiative from highest to lowest.
-- As a general rule, combat actions should only be performed in combat. Obvious exceptions, such as casting healing spells, exist.

Properly adjudicated, initiative and/or a surprise round can cover all of your examples. In the thieves guild, the attacking rogue should roll a bluff check (or some other skill) to attack the party by surprise. If the party doesn't spot the imminent attack, he gets a surprise round (but the other rogues do not). If they detect the attack, then everyone rolls initiative. Conversely, the party wizard can decide to attack the rogues while the rest of the party is negotiating, and the same mechanic would hold.

Even if they are looking for a fight, the party can't possibly see everything, and initiative determines who acts in what order. If you'd like, give them a +2 bonus to initiative because they are alert. (I remember that in Car Wars, initiative was determined by the fastest vehicle, but attacks happened in the order that they are declared. That would get damn messy around the gaming table with D&D.)

If someone is approaching the king, the guards most certainly will be checking him out. They might even step in front of the king. They could tell him to halt, draw a weapon, attack him outright, whatever. You see, both sides are aware of each other. No surprise round, unless the assassin specifically tried subterfuge to get in a sneak attack. In that case, he'd have to succeed at an opposed skill check. Otherwise, everyone rolls initiative.

Allowing players to ready actions outside of combat is a bad idea. Characters can't always be in combat. That would be messy to adjudicate. Instead, the DM should let them make statements such as, "If I see suspicious activity, I draw steel and attack." If that situation is met, roll initiative. If the opponent tries to hide his suspicious ativity, there's a skill mechanic for that. Consider the case of posting a watch while the party sleeps at night. Who wants to roleplay the entire night in 6-second increments? Instead, you simply determine if there's going to be an encounter and whose watch it's on. Then roll listen or spot checks to determine if the sentry -- who it is assumed is being alert all night -- detects the threat before the sleeping party gets ambushed.

I had a scenario once where the party in my game knew -- through some listen checks -- that there were some bad guys on the other side of the room. They wanted to swarm into the room and start slaying, so I had them roll initiative. The dwarf's job was to kick in the door while everyone else streamed through the doorway into the room. Guess who rolled the lowest initiative? Everyone else had to stand there, delaying or readying their actions until the dwarf got into position, kicked in the door, and got out of the way. It was frustrating and eventually amounted to no one getting to attack in the surprise round. Bad DMing on my part.

Now I'd tell them to get into position and let the dwarf kick in the door, then everyone rolls initiative. They are aware of the bad guys, so everyone got a surprise round.

I prefer that the monster cannot charge 60 feet past 24 opponents and hit someone without anyone being able to stop it (granted, this is an extreme example, but it illustrates the point).

When you are limited to a standard or move action only -- such as in a surprise round -- you can only charge up to your movement speed. In order to act again on round one before the party acts, you still have to beat initiative. Granted, it's not impossible to move 60 feet and attack while everyone else is still flat-footed, but it isn't a given if you have surprise.

And I disagree that an extreme example illustrates the point. An extreme example merely illustrates an exception to the norm. An extreme exception.

 

[irdeggman]

Actually in the fighter example - initiative should have been rolled prior to the fighter drawing his sword. Since drawing a weapon is part of carryng out the desire to engage. That is when two sets of characters "sense" something is going to happen then the roll initiatives. If the fighter had draw his weapon then he actually has committed a "surprise round" action and is not flat footed. That would have been my ruling on the issue.

 

[punkorange]

Maybe it would help if you left the suprise round as written(which happens *maybe* once a session IMC), and replace round 1 with the "preparing for combat" phase, in this phase you start by rolling initiative and are flat footed until your initiative. Remember the six second "PfC" phase all happens at once. Then on round 1 they are flat footed. This actually changes no rules mechanics, only the flavor you want.

on the whole 30 dex not helping in combat if you lose the init. If you don't go on the first round with a 30 dex, Then I would be very suprised. On average a 30 dex rogue with no feats would get an initiative of 20.

On the rogue rushing the king. Just throw in some flavor that doesn't effect the mechanics to make it fit. "The rogue rushes past the guards to strike at the king. The guards swing their swords at the rogue but the rogue proved too quick for them." The attack roll you make isn't neciserally the only attack you make in the entire six seconds of the round, you could make three attacks, that's just the one that counts.

You asked how to legally overcome flatfoodedness? Plain and simple it cannot be done. I agree that flavor should be made to fit mechanics, and not the other way around.

 

[atom crash]

You asked how to legally overcome flatfoodedness?

Win initiative.

Pump lots of skill points into Spot, Listen and Sense Motive.

Alertness.

Combat Reflexes.