How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[KarinsDad]

Then go over to House Rules and make up a rule that you can live with. There's no point in arguing your point here.

Sure there is.

I am arguing that it is legal to "force combat to start" by declaring a ready action according to RAW and hence avoid these issues in the case where you are aware of your opponents (and vice versa) and have been for some time. Nothing in the rules prevents you from readying an action at any time if you are aware of your opponents (and hence starting combat, regardless of whether your opponents are aware that you are starting combat). This is against the flavor of initiative, but it is not prohibited. Anyone should be able to start combat, not just NPCs.

Think of it as you being the only one in combat and everyone else is a "newcomer not aware" as per page 24 in the DMG.

In the case where you are unaware of your opponents but suspect where they might be, the ready rule in the DMG prevents this (unless your opponents are surprised when you do encounter them, then you can ready all you want if you were prepared for them because you get to act in the surprise round).

 

[KarinsDad]

KarinsDad... are you going to address peoples points here, or just keep stating over and over again that you don't like the rules?

Are you going to ask stupid questions, or are you going to talk rules?

I have addressed many people's points. Go back and reread. I have only said I did not like the rules a few times.

Try to be civil, stick to the facts, and not get annoyed if I do not address all of your points. Did you have a point???

 

[atom crash]

Anyone should be able to start combat, not just NPCs.

Technically, the DM decides when combat starts. But I agree that sometimes the actions of NPCs should force everyone to roll initiative, and sometimes the actions of the PCs should force everyone to roll initiative. It's the DM's job to properly adjudicate that, and it's possibly one of the biggest responsibilities he has in the game.

I invite you to reread my response in post #77, especially the paragraph beginning "Allowing players to ready actions outside of combat is a bad idea." I think that what you're talking about is already handled nicely by the rules, without allowing combat actions to be readied outside of combat or having PCs walking around in a perpetual state of combat rounds.

PCs shouldn't be allowed to roll initiative just so they can start combat before the foes show up and not be flat-footed. The DM decides whether or not the actions of the PCs or NPCs have caused combat to begin and initiative to be rolled.

 

[KarinsDad]

Again, if he gets within 30 feet of the king without tipping off the guards, then the guards aren't very good at their job. Or the assassin is very good at his job. The guards can always move between the king and the guy approaching before combat starts.

Not always.

If he is in disguise, they might be caught somewhat unaware. Four possibilities (as an example):

1) The assassin attacks, wins init, and the guards are surprised.

The King dies.

2) The assassin attacks, loses init, and the guards are surprised.

The King dies.

3) The assassin attacks, wins init, and the guards are not surprised.

The King dies.

4) The assassin attacks, loses init, and the guards are not surprised.

The Assassin dies.


The problem I have here is #3. Even though the guards are not surprised, the King still dies (because everyone except the Assassin is flat-footed).

I think the King should only die if his guards are surprised (i.e. whether he dies or not is irrelevant, but whether his guards are flat-footed or not when they are not surprised is). IMO.

But when the battle is joined, they know who the enemy is and where they are. Except in the first few seconds, when the element of surprise is tstill in effect.

Nope, I don't see a contradiction.

I am looking right at you. I expect an attack. We are NOT talking about surprise here, that is what the surprise round is for.

You are effectively saying that it is ok for you to surprise me in a surprise round (which I am ok with) and it is ALSO ok for you to surprise me when I am aware of you and expecting an attack as well. Attacking me first before I can act when I am aware and expecting an attack is ok, but surprising (i.e. making me flat-footed) me (without a feint or some other special feat or skill) is not. IMO.


The DMG even states: "Other times, the aware side has a few rounds to prepare. (If its members see the other side off in the distance, heading their way for example.) You should track time in rounds at this point to determine how much the aware characters can accomplish. Once the two sides come into contact, the aware characters can take a standard action while the unaware characters do nothing. Keep in mind that if the aware characters alert the unaware side before actual contact is made, both sides are treated as aware."

This means that if my group is aware of your group and you are unaware of us, then once we come into contact, my group goes on the surprise round (i.e. "can take a standard action").

If we accidentally made you aware of us before then, then it is normal initiative.

This means (illogically) that I can prepare for combat (i.e. cast spells and such) and watch you approach and if you get tipped off, you could win initiative in round one and still attack me while I am flat-footed, EVEN THOUGH I was aware of you the entire time and you are only suddenly aware of me.

The actions I do before combat starts are not considered combat actions and do not apply towards removing flat-footed.

 

[Ferrix]

I think atom crash made the best point so far...

Starting combat (which is really what we're talking about, readied actions or not) is what it is all about and that is up to the adjudication of the DM.

When the DM calls for initiative (whether an NPC or a PC declares an action) is when combat starts.

If a PC arbitrarily decides to ready an action in the case that their overt paranoia could be correct, it's the DM's call as to what happens.

So, in my conclusion, regardless of whether you think your character can walk around on "high alert" mode all the time or even for short times, it's up to the DM to decide how well that "high alert" mode is going to work. RAW or not, look to your DM and stop wasting the time I should be using to write a paper with.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I am arguing that it is legal to "force combat to start" by declaring a ready action according to RAW and hence avoid these issues in the case where you are aware of your opponents (and vice versa) and have been for some time.

Letting players decide when initiative is rolled is outside their jurisdiction. The PC can say, "I prepare to fire through this door as soon as Bob opens the door," but it doesn't mean that combat has started. That is purely the provence of the DM. So the question becomes, when does it behoove a DM to start combat?

I would say, it's good to call for initiatve as soon as action begins taking place. Or in other words, as soon as it is important that actions be timed. When the PC above says that they're going to wait for the door to open is not this point. He cannot start delaying and he cannot ready an action. When the door is opened, then combat should begin and initiative rolled because it is at that point that it matters what actions are taking place, who goes first, and who is aware of whom.

 

[Ferrix]

This means (illogically) that I can prepare for combat (i.e. cast spells and such) and watch you approach and if you get tipped off, you could win initiative in round one and still attack me while I am flat-footed, EVEN THOUGH I was aware of you the entire time and you are only suddenly aware of me.

The actions I do before combat starts are not considered combat actions and do not apply towards removing flat-footed.

For some reason that doesn't seem at all illogical to me. If I'm about to hit someone who I can see and who can see me, he gets tipped off that I'll hit him (maybe my posture, whatever) and is quicker than me (initiative) he very well may land the first blow to my surprise (since I thought I was going to have the upper hand), even though I was the one who tried to initiate combat.

3) The assassin attacks, wins init, and the guards are not surprised.

The King dies.

The guards are not surprised, however they are not quick enough to react in time. That's the vital point you are omitting. Just because you aren't surprised doesn't mean you are able to react quick enough to stop whatever is happening, that's the whole bloody point of initiative.

 

[DonTadow]

Agree

I am a believer that the game mechanics are built to make sense of things. The dice roll for initiative is equiviant to reaction. Even though someone's guarding someone they could be goofing off or just not paying attention. initative is about alertness. I think if you're having a problem with the game theres a new mechanic floating around that has every person take an action instaead of afull round action. I have to many players in my campaign ot try it but that could work.

 

[Ferrix]

This should be added to your examples.

1) The assassin attacks, wins init; the guards are surprised and are unable to react in time.

The King dies.

2) The assassin attacks, loses init; the guards are surprised but are able to react before the assassin can flee.

The King dies.

3) The assassin attacks, wins init; the guards are not surprised but are unable to react in time.

The King dies.

4) The assassin attacks, loses init; the guards are not surprised and are able to react in time.

The Assassin dies.

 

[atom crash]

You are effectively saying that it is ok for you to surprise me in a surprise round (which I am ok with) and it is ALSO ok for you to surprise me when I am aware of you and expecting an attack as well.

I am definitely NOT saying this. If both sides are aware of each other, the rules state that there is no surprise round and initiative is rolled normally. Yes, you are flat-footed until your action comes up in the round, because the game mechanics dictate that characters act one at a time from highest to lowest initiative. But there is no surprise round. You're expecting an attack but the other guy's reflexes were just a hair faster.

Imagine a Wild West pistol duel at high noon. Two gunfighters face each other across a dusty street. Both are aware of each other and both are ready to draw their weapons. The great disembodied DM voice in the sky says, "Roll initiative." One gunfighter rolls a 21, the other a 22. The one with the higher initiative draws his pistol and shoots the other one dead. The quicker reflexes won the day.

When both sides are aware of each other, there is no surprise round. If a combatant is hiding (ooh, look at me I'm a harmless bush; gotcha!) or disguised (ooh look at me I'm a harmless old beggar; gotcha!) or attempting a bluff (ooh look at me I'm a harmless unarmed rogue; gotcha!) or whatever other extenuating circumstance, any possibility of a surprise round comes down to a roll (or rolls) to determine whether or not the party detects the attack in time.

You can still be caught flat-footed in round one, but there are things you can do to minimize the dangers. If you have Uncanny Dodge (Barbarian 2 or Rogue 4) you retain your Dex bonus to AC. If you have Combat Reflexes you still get your AoOs while flat-footed. If you have a decent Dex and Improved Initiative, you stand a fair chance of going first in any given round.

It's a game, and those are your options for dealing with being caught flat footed.

If you don't like the idea that someone can react faster than another person and get off that one initial attack, there's nothing I can do to change your mind. I'm tired now and need to think about things other than surprise rounds and rolling initiative.