How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[nimisgod]

Well, he's an assassin. One-shotting flatfooted people is his shtick. Are you going to take that away from him?

Besides, I imagine that smart kings don't let anyone within 30 feet of them without good reason (like in Hero).

(edit) RE: Rules contradictions

No surprise or shock here. There are a ton of them in the system. When you play D&D by the rules, then you subject yourself to the designer's assumptions. House rule it if you're really bothered by it. Ban the Death attack ability (or replace it with a tamer version). It's not like you have to play with PrCs anyway.

Sidenote: I find Initiative in D&D far less important than certain other RPGs like Shadowrun and L5R d10. Even if you're not fighting an assassin type, initiative has a greater impact in these games.

(edit) In D&D, init only matters on the first round.

 

[KarinsDad]

I am definitely NOT saying this. If both sides are aware of each other, the rules state that there is no surprise round and initiative is rolled normally. Yes, you are flat-footed until your action comes up in the round, because the game mechanics dictate that characters act one at a time from highest to lowest initiative. But there is no surprise round. You're expecting an attack but the other guy's reflexes were just a hair faster.

By that sentence, I meant that you could catch me flat-footed (as if you suprised me), even when I am waiting for your attack.

Beating my init, sure.

Sneak attacking me and safely getting past my guards when they and I are waiting for you to make a move, nonsensical.

It's a flaw in the game mechanics.

 

[brehobit]

Letting players decide when initiative is rolled is outside their jurisdiction. The PC can say, "I prepare to fire through this door as soon as Bob opens the door," but it doesn't mean that combat has started. That is purely the provence of the DM. So the question becomes, when does it behoove a DM to start combat?

I would say, it's good to call for initiatve as soon as action begins taking place. Or in other words, as soon as it is important that actions be timed. When the PC above says that they're going to wait for the door to open is not this point. He cannot start delaying and he cannot ready an action. When the door is opened, then combat should begin and initiative rolled because it is at that point that it matters what actions are taking place, who goes first, and who is aware of whom.

Let's look at the all-to-common PCs are opening a door and getting ready to smack whatever is on the otherside.

As I understand it, one PC could summon a creature (say MS I) have it attack another PC and that would start initative. The PCs gain an advantage by having something early to fight (before they open a door for example). Very weird. Not saying a PC should do this, but I think it illustrates the problem.

Or how about a PC is scrying into a room and knows exactly where the baddies are (who are likewise ready for the PCs). Is a PC really going to be flatfooted? What if the door were trasparent?

The whole thing seems a bit odd..... I'd say letting the PCs ask for initiative order and giving it to them when peforming a specific action (opening a door) seems really quite reasonable.

 

[ThirdWizard]

It's a flaw in the game mechanics.

It isn't a flaw. That's how its supposed to be. The designers specifically wanted rogues to be able to sneak attack enemies if they went before them in combat. This is why I think you should make House Rules on this. You're debating that the rules should be changed to meet your vision of them, not that the rules are in line in the least with how you would like things to be. For the rest of us, this is how we like it.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Let's look at the all-to-common PCs are opening a door and getting ready to smack whatever is on the otherside.

As I understand it, one PC could summon a creature (say MS I) have it attack another PC and that would start initative. The PCs gain an advantage by having something early to fight (before they open a door for example). Very weird. Not saying a PC should do this, but I think it illustrates the problem.

Hmm... while possible, I think a good DM would disallow something like that... It's obvious meta-gaming, and should be quashed as such. I look very poorly on meta-gaming in my games. Luckily my players possibly look down upon it even more than I do.

Or how about a PC is scrying into a room and knows exactly where the baddies are (who are likewise ready for the PCs). Is a PC really going to be flatfooted? What if the door were trasparent?

That's a very interesting scenario. Since scrying only allows the caster to see the enemy, whatever benefits given would only be applied to that particular character, IMO. It wouldn't confer any extra bonus, though, than normally knowning where your enemy is at the start of initiative, which has been discussed in depth here. Basically, he would be flat-footed until acting, but more than likely would be nowhere near them until after acting anyway.

If the door is transparent they roll as soon as they're aware of each other, and have the option to open the door, run away, dimension door through, etc.

The whole thing seems a bit odd..... I'd say letting the PCs ask for initiative order and giving it to them when peforming a specific action (opening a door) seems really quite reasonable.

If they want to go in a certain order they can easily do so through delaying actions. Rogue -> Fighter -> Wizard -> Cleric are rolled, but they want to go Fighter -> Rogue -> Cleric -> Wizard. So, the Rogue delays, the fighter acts, the Rogue acts, the Wizard delays, the Cleric acts, and the Wizard acts.

 

[Gantros]

I for one agree with KarinsDad - this has always seemed to me like an obvious problem.

Perhaps a better example is in order. Let's say 2 PCs are working their way through a bandit lair that's been alerted to their presence. They enter a large room 60' across with a door on the opposite side. Unbeknownst to them, the bandit leader waits quietly behind the door. He hears the PCs coming, but decides to wait and ambush whoever comes through.

Scenario 1:

The room is empty. Suspecting danger beyond the other door, PC #1 decides to stand beside the door and push it open, while PC #2 stands 30' away with his crossbow trained at the door. #1 approaches the door and makes a Listen check, hearing breathing on the other side. Now both sides are aware of each other, but cannot immediately engage. #1 decides to act first by signalling to his partner and pushing open the door. Everyone rolls for initiative. If the bandit wins, he can dash through the door, past #1 who cannot attack, charge 60', and catch #2 flat-footed before he even has a chance to release the trigger.

Scenario 2:
Same as above, except a second bandit happened to be walking through the room as the PCs enter. Combat starts with both sides are surprised, so there is no surprise round and initiative is resolved normally. #1 moves off to attack the bandit. He doesn't look too tough, so #2 decides to let #1 handle him, and uses his turn to cover the suspicious-looking door by readying his crossbow to fire at anyone that comes through. Round 1 ends. Hearing the sound of combat, the bandit leader decides to open the door and rush through, hopefully catching the enemy unawares. Since he counts as a new, aware combatant, he enters combat between rounds 1 & 2 and everyone re-rolls initiative (as per the DMG). However, #2 was waiting for exactly something like this to happen, so his readied action happens before anyone else can act. Thus, he automatically gets a shot at the leader.

Now compare these two scenarios. In the first one, all initiative modifiers being equal, the bandit leader has a 1 in 3 chance of winning initiative and attacking #2 before he can react - this despite the fact that #2 was supposedly prepared for this action and was not being distracted in any way.

In the second one, since combat has started, it becomes impossible for the bandit leader to attack #2 before he gets a shot off, even though if anything you'd expect #2 to be a little more distracted by the fighting happening a few squares away from him.

How can you rationalize something like this? It seems obvious to me that #2 should be every bit as prepared to fire in scenario 1 as in scenario 2, if not more so. And this is far from a contrived scenario.

The DMG is pretty explicit about not allowing ready actions outside of combat, but it's much less explicit about when combat should start. I think it's perfectly fair to say that once two opponents become aware of each other, either side can choose to initiate combat by taking any combat action, including readying an action. This state should persist until both sides cease to be aware of the other, or both sides stand down.

In fact the DMG gives an example much like this, where two parties become aware of each other but cannot immediately interact (pg23). In this case, actions start tracking by rounds, and each side can do whatever they want to prepare until they come into contact, at which point initiative is rolled. The question is, does combat begin when initiative is rolled, or when the parties become aware? I'm not aware of anything explicit in the RAW that says it can't be the latter.

 

[Arkhandus]

One of the problems I have with the DND initiative system is that you are flatfooted both in the surprise round and in round one until your initiative comes up.

Get someone in the party to take 10 levels in the Divine Oracle prestige class; it's in Defenders of the Faith, dunno if it's been reprinted in Complete Divine or not, though. 10th-level D.O.'s are never surprised and never flat-footed, so if they have a good Initiative bonus (say, 18 Dex and Improved Initiative), they can act on the surprise round and cast something like Hold Person, Calm Emotions, Evard's Black Tentacles, Wall of Force, Blade Barrier, Flame Strike, Command, or whatever, to halt the attacker while everyone else gets ready and moves in to catch/slay the assassin/whatever.

There are many situations where I think this does not make sense. For example, the PCs are talking to the head of the Thieves Guild and one of his lieutenants suddenly decides to attack. All of the PCs were there, all of them were aware of the thieves in the room, all of them were ready for an attack, but suddenly the lieutenant gets to catch a PC totally flatfooted just because he won initiative.

No, they aren't flat-footed and there's no surprise round. As per the DMG, the characters are aware of the enemies around them, so they are not caught by surprise if someone there attacks them. It doesn't matter if they were expecting an attack or not, they are aware of the creatures so they will see if those creatures suddenly begin to attack. Unless the opponent materializes from nowhere, the PCs are not caught flat-footed and there is no surprise round. Shadowdancers and folks with Invisibility are generally the only ones that can pull off the thing you describe, because they can hide before the PCs arrive and then just "appear" right behind the guy they just gutted, with that invisible attack being their surprise round. After this, everyone rolls initiative normally as they begin to react; since the attacker was unknown before, he/she does get surprise, so everyone's flat-footed (except any folks who knew the invis/shadowdancer was there before and expected the attack might come), but his/her surprise round was already spent on the invis/hide-in-plain-sight attack.

What is worse is that if he wins initiative, the lieutenant can weave through all of the PCs and sneak attack the PC Wizard and none of the Wizard’s allies can so much as get an Attack of Opportunity against him.

As above, unless the opponent appeared from nowhere unexpectedly, the PCs will be aware and neither flat-footed nor surprised, so they'll get AoOs. Also unless the foe appeared from nowhere, the PCs will get to roll initiative as soon as the opponent takes an aggressive action (draws a weapon, for instance), so someone might beat him/her on initiative and strike the would-be attacker down with a fast response born from years/levels/whatever of adventuring and facing dangers.

Imagine how illogical it sounds for the PCs to melee assassinate the King by rushing 30 feet to his throne, and none of the King’s guards who are 5 feet away from the king can interpose in time, even though they were alert.

If the King has guards in his throneroom, or anywhere around his person, it is 100% certain that they are all readying actions to shout and strike down anyone who so much as draws a weapon within the presence of the King. Archers will be readying actions to shoot down anyone who makes a threatening move, unless the King shouts soon enough an order to hold fire. As soon as that PC assassin begins to move quickly towards the King, you can bet that every guard with a clear path will be using their readied action for a partial charge, moving in 20-30 feet and attacking the would-be assassin before he gets more than a few steps. The rest will be taking their partial actions to move in front of the King and surround him so no one could get close enough to hurt their liege, just in case other assassins are waiting in the wings to spring out from behind or beside the King. This is why an assassin is better off waiting until they're right up next to the King and then using the Quick Draw feat to pull out a dagger and sneak attack him or something, after using the Improved Feint feat to 'feint in combat' as a move-equivalent action by distracting the King with some words so he isn't watching their hands/belt at the moment.

Ditto for the bandits shooting arrows from ambush during the surprise round and again on round one if they have a better initiative. You could get upwards of 5 arrows from a bandit (1 on a surprise round and 4 on round 1 for a 16th level bandit) fired before a PC can react.

If the PCs are unaware of the bandits before the arrows come raining down on them, then yeah, the bandits have quite a head start advantage. That's why ambushes are good tactics. As for the 1st normal round, that's why high Dex and Improved Initiative are good. PCs venturing in the wilderness or roads should, in any case, have their resident rogue/ranger/monk/barbarian/bard out ranging a little ways ahead and to the sides, or even behind the party a ways sometimes, to keep an eye out and alert the party with a shout (or better yet, a Whispering Wind or Message sort of spell, or Rary's Telepathic Bond). Such characters are likely to be fast movers and have good Spot/Listen checks.

If your group has at least one high-Intelligence or high-Wisdom PC with any sort of combat focus or background (i.e. a monk or ranger, and the few barbarians/bards/rogues who are particulary wise/smart), you should probably mention to them as they travel that these kind of tactics come to mind from their training. Maybe just roll a clandestine Int or Wis check for them to see if their characters would realize or recall such tactics from their training.

So to avoid this issue, I have come up with a plan for the PCs to sidestep this rule within the rules.

As a surprise action, one PC declares that he is readying to attack (or pull out his weapon, or whatever) if anyone attacks him. This automatically puts the situation into combat, regardless of whether anyone is actually fighting.

So, any situation where the PCs meet a group of people and are unsure of their intentions, one PC could ready an attack if he is attacked.

PCs could also do this when they come to a dungeon door. One PC declares that he will attack if anyone attacks him and it puts it into combat, even if they are unaware of any enemy. Then, the PC who is opening the door merely waits for a round or two before opening it.

Now, this does not help against the two attacks by a bandit with surprise in a surprise round and in round one and a PC might still be flatfooted, but it helps in other situations. Personally, I prefer a rule that you are only flatfooted in the surprise round and not in round one to solve the problem, but that is a house rule.

Have everyone take a few levels in Barbarian or Rogue for Uncanny Dodge.

 

[king_ghidorah]

By that sentence, I meant that you could catch me flat-footed (as if you suprised me), even when I am waiting for your attack.

Beating my init, sure.

Sneak attacking me and safely getting past my guards when they and I are waiting for you to make a move, nonsensical.

It's a flaw in the game mechanics.

But assassins do kill people in the real world before their bodyguards can react and shoot their targets in vulnerable places. Granted guns aren't knives, but assassins can and do bypass guards and kill people before guards can respond. Guards who were looking for a killer.

It has even happened with amateur assassins. Think the attempt on President Reagan's life (he survived more out of luck than quick response by secret service agents), in which an amateur assassin shot the president point blank despite his secret service agents.

I just don't see the flaw in this.

When I fenced and when I wrestled, I was in matches, and that first strike, usually one person is ready and fully mobile and someone wasn't. It wasn't as extreme as the flat-footed rule in D&D, but it was more or less right. Once things started moving, that was no longer an issue. The rules feel about right for competitive sport conflicts, so I accept them for reality.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

The surprise round does not always occur. One side has to have the jump on the other, saying "we attack" first is _not_ getting the jump. The saying we attack is merely the players telling the DM that the characters are going to attack - the characters then have to use their own reflexes to carry that out.

Ways to get the jump on someone include:
a) hide yourself with the hide skill
b) come within spotting distance in the outdoors/indoors and win the spot check as per the DMG gives, while they fail theirs (although depending on terrain/lighting there may be some distance between the groups)
c) disguise yourself within a crowd and use the sleight of hand to draw a poisoned dagger
d) use listen to hear the drunken orcs behind the door making crude jokes and silently bring the party up, and nod "1...2...Go!"

Btw Karin's Dad, if you don't like the highly variable initiative you can force everyone to take 10 and come up with fixed initiative scores. That means the low initiative characters will never beat the higher.

 

[DarkMaster]

Simpler take 2 level of barbarian, still technically flat-footed but you don't suffer any of the disadvantages.