How to make a player stop being a paladin

[jgbrowning]

Joe--Why do you think people like to slam paladins so much?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well, my honest answer is that they're pretty much the type of people we (being the typical non-establishment outsider gamer type) think are jerks.

mostly because they're zealots, and RL zealots are a pain in the butt to deal with.. even the good zealots

other than that, i think people slam on paladins because it is the only class thats dependant upon maintaining a, somewhat unilluminating, code as well as maintaining both a particular structure (law/chaos axis) and morality (good/evil axis). Other classes may have to maintain one of the two, structure or morality, but not both.

as everyone knows, the defination of the above is tremendously variable (which i find damn funny, considering its should be well-defined to promote accurate role-playing, since it is a requirement for the class) and unlike most other classes, paladins cannot efortlessly (or at least with little effort ) slide from one campaign to another because every player/DM has subtle variations about what would constitute a "violation" of the paladin's code or alignment.

I also dont like the fact that paladins have a code. this to me seems a little to campaign specific. 'course i dont like the druid and the monk for this either. all the other classes are very free with possibilities. Paladins, druids and monks are a bit more pigeonholed and a bit to campaign specific for me.

as everyone knows, i'm a big 'ol moral relativist (funny because im also a absolutionist... advantage of not having a western mindset ) so if you want to flame me again about paladins start a new thread cause this ain't the place to do it. this doesn't refer to you shark, i pretty much assume your a non-flamer.. hehe

joe b.

 

[Seule]

Start a freeport watch campaign* where the players are members of the freeport city watch. He'll be dead in a week.

we've had discussions on how long a paladin would last in the city let alone on the watch.

*shamless plug for DR. N's Freeport story hour: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=17841

Hmm. I didn't have a problem with Paladins, and I did this anyway. I can recommend it, it's a really cool non-standard setting to run in (the Watch part, that is). DrNuncheon is part of my inspiration, but far from all of it.

--Seule

 

[Celebrim]

Humph. That sort of proselytizing just begs a response.

Sounds to me like people slam on paladins because in our current society it is the 'outsiders', 'disenters', and a 'rebels' who are honored by default as heroes by the vast majority of the establishment. It is the majority view that the person with the minority view is usually in the right. It is the majority view that it is braver to speak out than to follow someones lead. It is the majority view that the defenders of morality are more immoral than the defenders of ammorality. It has become a easier thing to attack 'the establishment' than defend it, because the dissident expects to have the herd rush to defend him. Funny how the establishment has packaged your angst and sold it back to you. Sounds to me like the real reason you slam on paladins is because your are fanaticly chaotic, or at least like to think you are.

Yes, I'm different just like everyone else.

I listen to alternative music...just like everyone else.

I a misanthrope...just like everyone else.

I hate the establishment...just like everyone else.

I'm a disident...just like everyone else.

I dis Western everything...just like everyone else.

See me excercise my open minded free thinking...just like everyone else.

Yeah yeah, I've heard this tired song before. Your smilies (among other things) betray the fact that you are part of the main stream herd and seeking its approval.

You know what I think. Anyone who says that Paladins are jerks because they are fanatics, have codes, and are lawful, and that RL fanatics, people that have codes, and/or are lawful are jerks, sounds alot like a fanatic to me. Who are _you_ trying to convert?

Anyway, I'm not really trying to flame you, just point out how uninteresting it is to dislike a class because it has beliefs different than your own. How how interesting or even relevant would it be for me to slam on Assassines and Blackguards as classes just because I thought evil people were jerks? Just because you prefer to populate your world only with things that fit within your narrow code doesn't mean we all should.

And the typical objection to evil PC's is based on that they wouldn't get along well with the rest of the party because the default assumption is that heroes are 'good'. All you have really said is that your default assumption is that the heroes (and/or the players) will be chaotic and thus lawful characters would be disruptive ('jerks', to use your stronger phrase').

 

[Turjan]

Well, I don't object to classes that follow a certain agenda. It's some kind of flavour which can add quite a lot to the game fun. I think that it's always up to the players whether this is fun or just annoying. The player of a druid who's every second word is "balance" is annoying, of course, because this is a destructve way of "discussion". The player should better come up with better suggestions how to solve problems in a way that pleases him/her as well.

The same holds true for a paladin. He doesn't have to talk of his god all the time, or repeat his favourite phrase until everyone is annoyed. Personally, I very much enjoy a group that contains, e.g., a LG Paladin and a CG Ranger. This provides the players with great opportunities for roleplaying. I don't mean it in the sense that one of the two bashes the other, but both working together, each providing their own means and pathes to reach a common goal. Maybe the Paladin doesn't have to to know each detail . It's great fun and doesn't have to be disrupting at all.

Turjan

 

[Buttercup]

Start a new game and have everyone build a 1st level character. On the first game when everyone has their character out and ready to play. Tell them to pass their character to the right and tell them thats the character that they are playing.

OMG, I love this idea! I will definately be using it in the near future.

 

[Rhialto]

OMG, I love this idea! I will definately be using it in the near future.

Yep, it's a good way of letting the player hate grow! After you do that, why don't you whizz on the sheets afterwards? It'll be good for role-playing!

 

[Buttercup]

Joe--Why do you think people like to slam paladins so much?

Well, you weren't asking me, Shark, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway.

I think the LG alignment is extremely hard to play well, so Paladins are often done poorly. Nearly all the paladins I've seen played were stupid, naive and annoying, essentially wandering around detecting evil on every NPC, door, room and rock. In short, they end up being caricatures rather than characters.

I think there is something else going on though. In our modern western culture, people who follow an absolute moral code are perceived to be either fanatics or mentally deranged. Hmm. Now that I think of it, this isn't a modern phenomenon. Moral absolutists have always been looked at with misgivings by most people. Anyway, playing a character who follows such an absolute code is well nigh impossible for most people, since most of us really can't wrap our minds around that worldview. (Please note that I'm not making a value judgement on this world view, merely stating what I observe, vis a vis roleplaying it.)

IMHO, a paladin should be too humble to want magic items that hadn't been given to him by his order. He should give most of his money away to the poor, sick, weak or to his church. He should uphold the law, even if he is sometimes tormented by doing so. When confronted with conflicting laws, he should uphold his god's law overall. And moreover, a paladin should refuse to work for or with anyone of less than neutral alignment, and should frequently have concerns about the choices/beliefs of CG, LN and N characters.

YMMV, of course.

 

[jgbrowning]

glad to see it wasn't a flame..

Humph. That sort of proselytizing just begs a response.

[/QUOTE

Celebrim, if you want to make assumptions about my personality, you're welcome to it. If you want to set me up as a straw man for traits that you don't like, and which i've never expressed, you're welcome to it as well.

personally you might want to find other venues to release your anger at the world and what you percieve the world as being, rather than attacking a stereotype you've created about a poster you've never met.

such hate shows more about you than me. you may find more success addressing it in another manner.

If you want to learn what i really think or believe in, i'm always free for discussion. if you want to put thoughts in my head and then insult me for what you said i think, i'm not interested.

joe b.

 

[mythago]

IMHO, a paladin should be too humble to want magic items that hadn't been given to him by his order. He should give most of his money away to the poor, sick, weak or to his church.

Of course, this assumes your paladin is a follower of something like the medieval Catholic church; there are lots of ways to be lawful good.

I see the problem with paladins not so much that they espouse a strong moral code, but that they actually live that moral code. To spout the teachings of a LG faith is easy. Actually living them is not so easy.

 

[Celebrim]

jgb: HA! If I am having knee jerk reactions, then I'm not the only one.

my honest answer is that they're pretty much the type of people we (being the typical non-establishment outsider gamer type) think are jerks.

Now, if you HAVEN'T said that you are a typical non-establishment outsider gamer in the above statement, please let me know. If anything in the above statement rings of assumption to me, is that you have the right to use the word 'we', since as far as I know of his beliefs, SHARK is most certainly not 'a typical non-establishement outsider gamer type' nor is that set of beliefs common to all of your readers no matter how many smilie faces you add to the end of the statement. If you do not wish for people to make assumptions about your personality do not explicitly state that you are a sterotype in order to establish a connection with your audience. After all, what you are really saying in the above statement is 'I'm one of you, and I have these attributes, and you can draw many useful conclusions about my beliefs and behavior from that relationship, and among those things is that Paladins are the sort of people we mutually dislike'.

You are identifying yourself, and identifying yourself with a group so don't blame me for doing so. And in any event, what makes you think that I hate that group. I hate them no more or less than I hate, well, Paladins. If anything, I find them amusing. The only thing that ever bothers me about either is when they get really self-righteousness - which just oozes in your language whether you know it or not (which is probably the pot calling the kettle black I know).

And as for my specific accusations against you, I didn't just pull them out of the air. You own post contains them.

What does anti-establishment mean if not dissidence?

You associate Zealotry, a word rich in negative conatation, not with ideology in general, but with the particular (non-good) portion of the ideology of Paladinhood.

You then add the aside that the code of Paladinhood is particularly 'non-illuminating'.

You note that you believe Paladin are 'not free with possibilities', a phrase that richly describes what you clearly believe to be 'good' and which you assume does not extend to Paladins - which I find to be a debatable statement. Do you claim NOT to be an 'open minded free thinker'?

"as everyone knows, i'm a big 'ol moral relativist..."

Explain to me how my assumption that you are a moral relativist is unwarranted again?

"advantage of not having a western mindset"

Ahh... explain to me how my assumption that you think there is some enherent inferiority in having a 'western mindset' is unwarranted again?

Look, the point is this. Sure, I mocked a certain mentality (which you may or may not have, but which I think there is good reason to think you have based on the fact you asked the reader to identify you with it) and I certainly did not fairly treat it as a valid way to view things, but no more so than you just mistreated the philophical beliefs of Paladins or people whose believes are thier real life equivalents. And you, once so attacked, quite predicatably responded by coiling up and disdainfully claiming your emotional and mental maturity over anyone who would dare mock that set of beliefs. I'm only suprised you didn't use the words 'shocked' and 'disappointed'. The fact of the matter is that I said very little about you that you didn't say about yourself, I just merely set it in a scoffing tone and that is what is really bothering you I think - or do you wish to deny that you are a moral realtivist who holds a non-western anti-establishment world view? Do you wish to retract that you are 'typical' and a 'outsider'?