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How to make D&D playable (long)

Doorf

First Post
1) No magic item creation feats for PC or their NPC with exception to creating potion, scroll and wands.
2) You can never buy any magical item worth more then 3000gp and only magical items that are desribed in core rule books.
3) You can't muliticlass freely. You need at last 3 levels in first class 5 in 2nd 7in 3rd. You can take prestige classes as you se fit.
4) You can never benefit from Evasion (dex saves) and Mantle (fort saves) at once only first ability your PC gets will work.
5) Haste don't stacks with other haste effects like Battletide (can have max +1 partial action)
6) Time stop effect doesn't stack with other haste effects you get just 1d4+1 rounds
7) Magic Domain dosn't give possibility to use magial items as arcane spellcaster. In this place You get SR for 1 spell equal to 10+1/level, lasts 1round/level or untill discharged.
8) Teleports, Dimension doors works on 1 living creature with eq or 1 object.
9) Magical weapons can't have magical bonuses higher then the +dam/+hit enchantment itself. Ex.: Longsword can't be +1 Briliant Energy since 4 is not <= 1
10) Only one damage type can be put on one item. Ex.: Long sword can't be flaming and shocking
11) You can only take prestige classes/classes from PHB, Sof, T&B, MofF, Forgoten Realms, DotF, Song and Silence and Masters of the Wild.
12) Greater spell powers removed, Spell powers don't stack (red mage bonus, archmage bonuses)
13) Spells removed: Kiss of the vampire, Ghostform, Fiendform, Imbue familiar with spell ability, Hide life, Simbull's Spell Matrix, Simbul's Spell Trigger, Firebrand.
14) Max 30point buy system or 4d6 for creating char.
15) PC can't take char. with templete that increase levels. Ex.: Drow, Half celestial etc.
16) NPC, cohort from Leadership can be used only for protecting Keep, House.
17) You can't use guilds, temples etc for safekeeping money/items
18) Concealment can never be higher then 50%
19) Feats removed: Blood line of Fire, Innate spell, Spell casting prodigy, Persistent spell, Spell fire wielder.
Spells changed:
1) Blinding Spittle gets Save: Fort negates.
2) Mace of Odo can protect only from spell of your caster level -2 max 11 or spell level 5 whatever is more usefull.
3) Polymorph other, Polymorph any object cast on creatures has duration 10min/level. Polymorph any object uses rules from Polymorph other for polymorphing creatures (max 15hd etc.).
4) Divine sacrifice - Sacrificing 10hp can give 5d6 dam to next succesfull atack in the round you sacrifice hp. In next round sacrifice of hp is wasted.
5) Every miracle effect must be approved by Clerics deity.
6) Gate spell can summon only willing creature.
7) Shroud of undead spell does not protect you from mind affecting, compulsion effects.

We are using those rules for about 7 months and it is really more fun. There is not so much powerplay as there used to be.

What do you think?
 
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Silly me. Here I've been having fun with the core rules for two years. Why didn't someone tell me it was unplayible? :D

1) No magic item creation feats for PC or their NPC with exception to creating potion, scroll and wands.
2) You can never buy any magical item worth more then 3000gp and only magical items that are desribed in core rule books.

You must have problems with players making items and buying items. The makinI can sort of see. Of course you have to give them the time to do this. As to hte buying, what they buyn is purely in the hands of the DM. So, unless you allow them to buy things before you think it through it should not be a problem.

4) You can never benefit from Evasion (dex saves) and Mantle (fort saves) at once only first ability your PC gets will work.

I've yet to see a character with both abilities.

17) You can't use guilds, temples etc for safekeeping money/items

Why?

Soem of the changes seem fine. Most I think rarely come up for me to really care if it's one way or the other. However, if this works for you and you and yours have fun with it, then congradulations.

:)
 

We started to get problems closing to 16th level.
PCs had AC about 70
DC saves were geting close to 40
Finding few days to create Items like:
Belt use activated with heal once a day is actually very eazy.
Everyone was walking with permanent Polimorph other into Stone Giant with persistant displacement.
Fiendform was trully out of tune.
Persistant Kiss of the vampire (8th level spell for incantatrix)+ Shroud of Undead spell gives you infinite healing and enervation as touch.
Monster CR 16 for party while was at level 15 was no match and monster was unable to harm anyone.
10 death slaads cound not even make 1 dam to fighter. Things were geting radiculus so we changed them.
The end was when sorcerer bough 2 scrolls with persistant time stop and blasted whole meditation at enemies then did meditation and blasted all spell again.
 
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Doorf said:
We started to get problems closing to 16th level.

Salutations,

My players know what my favorite song as a dm goes along the line of "Anything you can do, I can do better."

They often keep that in mind when making min-max'ng their characters.

I also keep strict control on the magic in the game- and all items created come with dm permission.

We seem to have been playing fine.

FD
 

Doorf said:
We started to get problems closing to 16th level.
PCs had AC about 70
DC saves were geting close to 40
Finding few days to create Items like:
Belt use activated with heal once a day is actually very eazy.
Everyone was walking with permanent Polimorph other into Stone Giant with persistant displacement.
Fiendform was trully out of tune.
Persistant Kiss of the vampire (8th level spell for incantatrix)+ Shroud of Undead spell gives you infinite healing and enervation as touch.
Monster CR 16 for party while was at level 15 was no match and monster was unable to harm anyone.
10 death slaads cound not even make 1 dam to fighter. Things were geting radiculus so we changed them.
The end was when sorcerer bough 2 scrolls with persistant time stop and blasted whole meditation at enemies then did meditation and blasted all spell again.

Sounds like you let the game get out of hand. I don't mean to be critical but I don't know any DM (including many on these boards) that would allow a game to get remotely close to this. However, the simple solution is a few Dispell Magics or anti magic zones. How does one even get AC 70+ with the core rules?
 

Everything was perfectly legal with core books rules. When Dm changes every adventure (everyone wanted to play noone wanted to stick to being DM forever) you have to play by the rules and DM can't control everything including amount of magic items. Of course mordenkajnen's disjunction was usefull but short term solution. Bad point of game was finding appropriate monsters.
Advancing every monster is time consuming.
Using AMF every combat is preety borring for both DM and PC.


Btw forgot about one thing we removed spell True Ressurect. Now death means a lot. Previouse you could kill one PC 10 times he was lossing only cash :P


And playing game i DM can do better then you is really hard work when you want it to look cool, appropriate and FUN and have 6 very intelligent ppl as Players. Giving powerfull monsters (high CR) was just leading to very rapid level advancement.
 

I disagree. Having played with the rules as written, and many of the 'mainstream' supplements (Sword & Fist, Tome & Blood etc.) but not the 'subsidiary' supplements (FR, Relics & Rituals etc.), I managed to run a successful campaigns from levels 1-20. Although the characters were extremely powerful by top-level, the final battle was fought tooth-and-nail against a group of immortal wizards and their golems, with half the party defecting and the remainder forced into a temporary alliance with the minions of a sinister telepath.

Again, the problem is not the system: it's probably your game. For one, I believe that the CR system is a joke. Very few of the monsters are correct, and the relative power of a party of a given level diverges rapidly. A weak 16th level party could be slaughtered by a smackdown 10th level party. The trick is to just eyeball the party's power. NPCs can be very effective for the above reasons: a 15th level fighter is still CR15, but can be insanely difficult for CR15 or pretty pathetic, which is variable according to how strong you feel the party are relative to a 'core' 15th level party.

As for your lowdown:
1) No magic item creation feats for PC or their NPC with exception to creating potion, scroll and wands.

If this is a problem, use DM fiat. Remember, you have to authorise all items created. Just weed out the ridiculous ones without saying a blanket 'no'.

2) You can never buy any magical item worth more then 3000gp and only magical items that are desribed in core rule books.

This is according to your campaign world, and should not be a 'rule'. You can disallow magic shops, or have artifact vendors- it's your preference.

3) You can't muliticlass freely. You need at last 3 levels in first class 5 in 2nd 7in 3rd. You can take prestige classes as you se fit.

Now here is a genuine problem. But do remember DM fiat, and remember you can ask the PC why he (in character) is a paladin/ranger/telepath.

4) You can never benefit from Evasion (dex saves) and Mantle (fort saves) at once only first ability your PC gets will work.

Not usually a problem. Remember, you can make NPCs with both if you feel your PCs are screwing around with you- or just make the DCs ridiculous (visit Sultans of Smack...)

5) Haste don't stacks with other haste effects like Battletide (can have max +1 partial action)

Don't have Battletide, therefore can't comment.

6) Time stop effect doesn't stack with other haste effects you get just 1d4+1 rounds

This is true anyway- Time Stop only gives 'apparent' rounds, and is therefore not subject to Haste.

7) Magic Domain dosn't give possibility to use magial items as arcane spellcaster. In this place You get SR for 1 spell equal to 10+1/level, lasts 1round/level or untill discharged.

Interesting, though I see what your getting at. Seems fair.

8) Teleports, Dimension doors works on 1 living creature with eq or 1 object.

Bad. If this is so, high-level mobility is vastly reduced, and the PCs spend weeks tromping cross-country to fulfil their high-level quests. I hope you don't use random encounters!

9) Magical weapons can't have magical bonuses higher then the +dam/+hit enchantment itself. Ex.: Longsword can't be +1 Briliant Energy since 4 is not <= 1

Interesting rule- I like it.

10) Only one damage type can be put on one item. Ex.: Long sword can't be flaming and shocking

Well, I'm not sure. Remember that they are sacrificing a fair amount for that +d6 damage. They (compared to a simple +1 extra) gain 2.5 damage and lose 1 to hit, the ability to wound creatures with higher DR, weakness to Sunder etc, exposure to e.g. Protection from Elements.

11) You can only take prestige classes/classes from PHB, Sof, T&B, MofF, Forgoten Realms, DotF, Song and Silence and Masters of the Wild

Well, seeing as the DM allows the supplements that he sees fit, this is unnecessary.

12) Greater spell powers removed, Spell powers don't stack (red mage bonus, archmage bonuses)

Didn't allow FR. Simple solution :D

13) Spells removed: Kiss of the vampire, Ghostform, Fiendform, Imbue familiar with spell ability, Hide life, Simbull's Spell Matrix, Simbul's Spell Trigger, Firebrand.

Don't know about KotV, Fiendform, Simbul or Firebrand. Ghostform I had no problem with. Imbue Familiar I see no problem with (no one even used it IMC). Hide Life is interesting, but bearing in mind 5000XP hit...to get rid of it, use Antimagic Shell...or hunt the finger/toe.

14) Max 30point buy system or 4d6 for creating char.

You are the DM. You set the point buy limit. Though personally I favour the Organic Method.

15) PC can't take char. with templete that increase levels. Ex.: Drow, Half celestial etc.

Again, this is an optional rule anyway.

16) NPC, cohort from Leadership can be used only for protecting Keep, House.

This screws Leadership. This is bad. Leadership is very interesting, but not overly broken. For one, it lends weight to Charisma. Secondly, the half XP rule means that the cohort fades rapidly, and thirdly, again, the DM should only allow Leadership if he sees it fit. If you're not happy, disallow the feat. Don't introduce illogical rules (one questions why the cohort can only be used for guarding?)

17) You can't use guilds, temples etc for safekeeping money/items

Why not? This is illogical and arbitrary. It seems very strange indeed that the lowest peon can stash his copper farthings under the floor of his hovel but the PCs can't keep their loot safe. Are they really expected to be carrying round (constantly) tonnes of gold?

18) Concealment can never be higher then 50%

That is correct. No house rule necessary.

19) Feats removed: Blood line of Fire, Innate spell, Spell casting prodigy, Persistent spell, Spell fire wielder.

Don't know about Bloodline or Spellfire. Prodigy I know from repute, and I agree. Innate Spell and Persistent Spell are perfectly fine as written (Innate seems very weak indeed): I'm guessing that you've been exploited.

Because that is what has happened. Your PCs have conned you. Scrolls of Persistent Time Stop- how? That would be a 13th level spell, and unless you're using Epic Levels, that's impossible. As Crothian says, ACs of 70 with only core rules seems incredible. Polymorph Other can backfire: did these Stone Giants ever go into a town. What would happen if the party cleric and wizard both died...and the Stone Giants tried to get them resurrected? I don't think the rules are broken- your PCs are. Read the rules properly and see the loopholes they are exploiting, YOU take out the optional rules/classes/spells you dislike and you veto anything that seems dramatically out of line. If worst comes to worst, simply use NPCs against them with similar or worse tricks. Introducing a whole barrage of house rules, some illogical and some arbitrary, does not seem a sensible way of going about things.
 

Doorf said:
Everything was perfectly legal with core books rules. When Dm changes every adventure (everyone wanted to play noone wanted to stick to being DM forever) you have to play by the rules and DM can't control everything including amount of magic items.

I think we found your problem. Buckle down and DM. Round Robin DMing is not something easy done. Also, just becasue it's legal by the rules doesn't make it right. It sounds like you have a oarty full of min maxers and when things got out of hand, no one was there to do anything about it because no one DMs.
 

Al said:

Why not? This is illogical and arbitrary. It seems very strange indeed that the lowest peon can stash his copper farthings under the floor of his hovel but the PCs can't keep their loot safe. Are they really expected to be carrying round (constantly) tonnes of gold?

Sure PC is allowed to store 50000gp in gems and gold in let's say temple of Pelor but it is not save.
1 Becouse Dangeon Delver from Song and Silence can 'sense' treasures of 10000gp or 1000gp+.
2 Becouse suddently there might happen some war or clerics were obligated to prepare to war and might happen to use all the gold they could get to help/protect the innocent. If PC stored gold in temple then he is a member of this temple and then he must agree/allow his treasure to be used as temple decides.
(PC: I gave you ring with three wishes ! Two are missing... Priest: But we had plagues of rats sir, otherwise our worshipers would starve to death)
3. Why would temple risk to be attacked by PC's enemies.
4. If some mage/thief with scrolls arrives with teleport then casts mordenkajnen's disjunction to remove any magical protections and casts mass teleport on treasure there is no refunds to PC
5. Treasure needs place, protections, guards it all costs why would any temple do it for free. I don't believe in Santa Clause :)
6. PC should buy house/keep/castle and mind his own bussiness rather then beg ppl to guard his gold, there are more important stuff for NPCs.
7. No such place as safe place exists.
8. Sure you can dig your gold somewhere ... worse if you was observed by scrying or someone is passing by with locate object cast on gold piece
9. Let's say hmm Middle ages. Would you believe that rich ppl that managed to earn a lot of cash on wars, killing others would every take their treasure and store it in Christian church for safe keeping? Buy buy gold. In middle ages all 'stored' jawelery would be considered donated :)

About Leadership i think it is great feat nice field for roleplay. Remember if you allow 1 pc to get it and you allow him to get his cohort with you other might want to get it as well. If you have 6 PC each with cohort you get 12 characters combats takes 3-4h each.
You can use your cohort and NPC for stuff like geather information, helping to build keep, persuading someone to do something,protecting your treasure, use scry on you to watch you and teleport in rare exceptions to help you.
Even i would allow scribing scrolls, making potions,analyze deomer, planar binding etc. and sharing spells from spellbook.
But big NO for traveling all the time with PC and helping him in every combat, if sometimes for some extremaly rare reason cohort/npcs is in combat they get full share of exp.

About travel: plane shift, mass teleport,or chained reach teleport (8th level cast by incanatrix), gate, windwalk is still on and very usefull.

About gate spell it is extremaly abusive to plane shift and gate in elminster, order him to sleep for 1r/level meanwhile you kill/rob him, no save no SR.
About GhostForm. You can cast wall of force at anyone if he can't teleport you can enter wall of force (half sphere) through ground 5' cast 2 spells and move back. Sure enemy can ready an attack but you can arrive with mirror images and half concealment from ghost form.
Persistant fiend form gives you ability to teleport w/o error at will for 24h. In haste you can teleport in cast 2 spells and teleport out.

About 13th level spell. There is no limitation about 9th level spells there is no limitation in buying any item according to core rules book. Sure you can limit it since you are DM but if you do you are house ruling, not playing exactly by book.

I never heard about ppl happy playing exactly by book without changing anything. We tried hard for about 18 months then gave up.
I em wondering if anyone made some similar set of rules not to rule 0 every time something odd happens.

I heard that Grayhavk licenced rules or osmething you can get paying 20$ to WothC don't allow magical items creation as well.

Btw 1 year ago before ELH appeard you could eazily create +50 bluff ring for 12500gp + some exp. And your meanie PC yeals: It is according to DMG RULES ! and we play BY BOOK.
Sometimes you just want to go home and get another beer.
 
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Persistant fiend form gives you ability to teleport w/o error at will for 24h. In haste you can teleport in cast 2 spells and teleport out.

Ignoring the fact that a metamagic feat cannot raise a spell's effective level past 9th since then there'd be no spell slot for the spell to occupy, this is still wrong.

Teleport w/o error at will is a spell-like ability. A spell-like ability is standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. With haste, you get one additional partial action per round. You could teleport w/o error as that partial action or your standard action. You could cast another spell as the partial action or your standard action.

Even if the teleport w/o error functioned as a quickened spell (which spell-like abilities do not function as), you're still limited to a single quickened spell per round.

You most certainly could not telepor w/o error twice and cast two spells. That's four standard actions in a single round.

Once again, the problems aren't with the game. They're with your game.

-- Mark L. Chance.
 

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