D&D General How To Reconcile the Settings

[generic]

Basically it seems like they are going down the "das wacist" rabbit hole and then popping back up the other side and saying "elves would work better though" and giving their only reason to be how they look. Really? Really. Ok.

Not to mention orcs are literally racially and culturally evil and culturally they are nomadic murder hobos and marauders. And racially are incredibly violent. That one is also culture.

Um, a few of those statements could be better said, just a bit of advice, if you do happen to speak English as a secondary language.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Yes that's their exact point, and mine as well. Not to be rude, but do you happen to speak English as a secondary language? That was the point of their post, I believe.

Oh, wait! You're talking about them saying that Elves are aesthetically better as marauders, in which case I agree with you.

The problem is they literally were just saying elves work better because they look like marauders. Aesthetics.

Also yes. English is not my first language.

Back on point. They gave no reasons for elves to be used as a stand in for orcs.

There are plenty of reasons on the other hand to use orcs. For instance. They eat people.

 

[cbwjm]

If you absolutely must have nomadic raiders on horseback that take what they want and DGAF, elves are so much more aesthetic.
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I don't think I'd have them on horseback, in fact there would be little relation between the culture of the Mongol hordes and the orcish hordes. Maybe that's where the disconnect is. I'm not saying that I'm taking the Mongolian culture and replacing human with orcs, I'm saying I'm taking the location and loading it with orcs. Their culture will be similar to what we have in the current DnD books.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Also pretty sure the only time ive seen orcs mentioned in the same sentance as horses is to specify that they eat them and do not ride them. That is that i remember anyway.

 

[generic]

The problem is they literally were just saying elves work better because they look like marauders. Aesthetics.

Also yes. English is not my first language.

Back on point. They gave no reasons for elves to be used as a stand in for orcs.

There are plenty of reasons on the other hand to use orcs. For instance. They eat people.

It all comes back to the fact that it's silly to compare everything in fantasy to world history and world cultures in order to call someone a racist in most, but not all, I should be clear, circumstances.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

The elf comparison was absurd. Im sorry.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

At first i couldnt tell if you were joking or having a melt down. Orcs are not humans. Humans are not orcs. Orcs also arent the same one edition to another. Orcs in some editions are quite monstrous and quite evil.

You might as well call mindflayers misunderstood and wrongfully victimized hair dressers.

Calm down.

Fiction does not exist in a vacuum. Stories are shaped by the implicit biases of those writing them, and if the authors do not take a critical look at their own preconceived notions of the world, it can lead to their creative work containing unfortunate implications. Worse still is if authors intentionally include dog whistles in their work that aren't immediately recognized at first, but are eventually noticed both by the dominant power groups within the audience, for which the stories subconsciously (or even consciously) reinforce their existing biases; and by members of those marginalized groups from whom those stereotypes were drawn from, which results with them being alienated by the work, because it's yet another item on the huge pile of things in society that are portraying them as "other" or even "lesser". It's not just restricted to racism; sexist and queerphobic elements can be found all over speculative fiction. You have to look below the surface to find them, but people who face hate in real life simply for who they are tend to have a good eye for spotting those things.

In their codifying depiction in Tolkien's works, Orcs, though inhuman on the surface, were implicitly coded as an "other", drawing from negative stereotypes about various "others" in human history filtered through the lens of British culture -- most notably, the Tartars and the Mongols. Then add in influences from the Yellow Peril and from early 20th century scientific racism, plus a mythology of corruption from the Fair Folk into orcs, and you have yourself a creature that is designed to evoke a sense of terror and revulsion born from real-world prejudices.

Many of those cultural touchstones that gave rise to the original orc faded out of the cultural consciousness over time, but other racist stereotypes rose to take their place. Orcs "diversified", beginning to draw on misinformed notions of African culture and peoples as well as Asian ones. But no matter what ingredients go into the cake, it comes out the same: a savage horde of tribes vying for supremacy within themselves but united in the threat they pose to civilized society. And the traditional, generic, stereotypical fantasy setting and its idea of "civilized society" remains to this day heavily Eurocentric. See the problem?

Can you portray nomadic raiders posing a threat to settled societies without them being racist caricatures? Of course. The problems come when you A) ascribe them a moral quality of universally Evil with a capital E, and B) make them mono-cultural, mono-ethnic, and/or mono-species. One or the other is forgiveable, but combining both tends to result in authors falling back on hateful stereotypes about non-White peoples, usually either Asians via the Mongols or the indigenous peoples of the Americas (see pretty much every John Wayne movie ever) to give their marauding hordes more flavour. Except when they're Vikings. Then they're just drunk. Not!Vikings don't come out pretty either, and are just as butchered in portrayal as Not!Indians, but unlike the Aboriginal peoples, the Scandinavians aren't exactly a marginalized group.

Depends which version of the realms you play, and so it’s not always anything goes.

Obvious reason is that my favourite published WotC setting is Eberron, and the Valaes Tairn are so much cooler than their angsty Undead worshipping Aereni cousins back on the island. The Silaes Tairn and Draleus Tairn go even harder. And those Shadow House pansies? Pshaw. Plus the fact that Valaes Tairn are not portrayed as slobbering idiots that you can genocide for XP guilt-free? The Draleus Tairn may need to have their heads checked though; not a good idea to go picking fights with dragons.

With how many proper nouns I just dropped, it should be obvious that the elves of Eberron are not a monoculture. You can't paint them all with one brush. And that's good. Too many D&D races and cultures tend to have the two joined at the hip. Don't do that! Make your other races culturally diverse like humans are! Maybe not as much so if you're pressed for time and space, but at the very least don't have it so that your players can immediately guess what an NPC is going to be like just on account of the colour of their skin or the shape of their ears.

In general, I find making elves just "humans, but better" boring, particularly when it manifests as "humans, but gooder". They're also pretty regularly portrayed as arrogant and snooty, but usually benign comapred to the more immediate threats of orcs and goblins, which is also boring. Play into their Fey roots, draw on the myths of the Aos Si and the Unseelie, and make them something to be feared. Or if you're going for a less alien portrayal, play into their long lives and the inevitable fear of death, which perhaps is even more intense than that in humans. Mkae them out to make a legacy for themselves that endures even after they shed the mortal coil, no matter how many lessers they have to step on to do it.

Also double scimitars. The martial arts nerd in me hates them, but they're just so cool anyways. Sorry voice in my head demanding historical accuracy.

 

[generic]

The elf comparison was absurd. Im sorry.

I agree that the post was silly, but I'm also then type who likes to treat Orcs as people with complex motivations in most of my settings.

it varies by campaign.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

It all comes back to the fact that it's silly to compare everything in fantasy to world history and world cultures in order to cal someone a racist in most, but not all, I should be clear, circumstances.

Um. I wasnt calling them a racist. I think they were edging toward calling other people racist. Hense my quoting the "das wacist" meme to mock them. Because i was in fact the one calling them out for assuming others were racist.

Because they seemed to be trying to rant that typical use of orcs is racist.

Did you get some part of this interaction backward?

 

[generic]

Um. I wasnt calling them a racist. I think they were edging toward calling other people racist. Hense my quoting the "das wacist" meme to mock them. Because i was in fact the one calling them out for assuming others were racist.

Because they seemed to be trying to rant that typical use of orcs is racist.

Did you get some part of this interaction backward?

Nope, I was referring to their post, but quoting you because I was talking to you. So, I was saying the same thing, about their post, that you were saying.