How To Resurrect D&D Miniatures

[thewok]

Why are there still people saying "the random model doesn't work"? The random model worked just fine. In fact it worked brilliantly and obviously made Wizards a ton of cash for 7+ years, or however long the line lasted. Rising costs, a saturated market, and simple product fatigue killed DDM, nothing more and nothing less.

It depends on the audience. Random boosters worked well for as long as the skirmish game lasted. I'll assume that the skirmish game's numbers started to wane before 4E, and the attempt to revitalize it at that point was just too late. I believe that is because they didn't support it like they did and do support Magic.

Those of us who played just the RPG (and I'll be making a generalization here, because I know I'm not alone) mostly stayed away from DDM because of the randomness. We have needs for (relatively) large numbers of similar types of miniatures. We might need four or five each of three types of goblins, or some similar situation. The purpose behind the collection was completely different than those who played the game. We weren't looking for minis to add up to a point total in order to be competitive; we were looking for minis to put on the mat to help create a story. In other words, we wanted to tailor the minis to our games--not tailor our games to our minis.

Unfortunately, Wizards didn't really take the shift in need into account when they stopped the skirmish game and just made minis for the RPG.

The way to resurrect the line is simply to let it lie for a few years.

I fully agree with this statement. I think the economy is a major factor as well, and it has been for a long time now.

Once the economy recovers, and people have more disposable income, then I think WotC will try to revive their miniatures line. But when they do that, they need to be prepared to show the love, or people will just get bored with it again.

 

[shadzar]

Those of us who played just the RPG (and I'll be making a generalization here, because I know I'm not alone) mostly stayed away from DDM because of the randomness.

Nope not alone, and I actually did play DDM but only booster drafts. Of course the price to buy them was cheaper than just making a purchase of the same amount of product, plus I DID get to pick and choose which minis I wanted for the most part. Wasn't shy about taking RPG related rares or commons either. Might have not done well with a "constructed army" or whatever from the booster draft, but got good minis for RPGs.

If not for that, and knowing case allocation, wouldn't ahve bought any. When you know the assortment in a case, you pretty much ARE buying non-random minis, because you know the frequency of the minis, and could buy the cases to get exactly what you wanted.

That is how many RPG users I knew did it. Then filled out RPG needs with trades with the skirmish players. Things that aren't needed for RPG, but people go gaga over for the skirmish game were easy to get MANY assorted minis for some useless rare.

But again when you got what you need, no point in buying more, so case sales drop fast when nothing decent enough is in them to make people want to buy a case anymore, and the skirmish players weren't enough to keep it afloat.

I also think the game was on its 4th version with 4th edition of D&D also wasn't it? So the skirmish never was that stable and also helped kill it off.

 

[thewok]

I also think the game was on its 4th version with 4th edition of D&D also wasn't it? So the skirmish never was that stable and also helped kill it off.

It's possible. I'm going only by the rulebooks I have in my possession. One is an early rule book that came with a poster map of a simple dungeon grid that was then modified by terrain tiles. The other is the manual from the 5-mini starter released around the same time as 4E (with the green dragon, yuan-ti, and so on).

 

[shadzar]

It's possible. I'm going only by the rulebooks I have in my possession. One is an early rule book that came with a poster map of a simple dungeon grid that was then modified by terrain tiles. The other is the manual from the 5-mini starter released around the same time as 4E (with the green dragon, yuan-ti, and so on).

Well after Harbringer, there was another set of rules with War Drums. Then before 4th, those rules changed again with the downloadable updates to older sets I think around Domains of Dread?. Then 4th edition came out with the new more purple card.

1 game with black and white cards and tiles on a grid.
2 games with red cards on maps.
1 game with purple cards on maps.

So the 4 versions of the game lasted the length of time 3.5 did and then some.

2003-2010

Roughly 2 years per version of the game.

 

[Oryan77]

This of course (in part) subsidizes the cost of us well informed geeks who can buy precisely want we want from very reasonably priced sellers of singles (like RPG Locker).

Thanks for the mention. Whenever I see someone mention my site for the first time in a new thread, I like to give them a 10% discount on their next order. I'll PM you a discount code to use if you ever place an order.

There are so many reasons why non random packs won't work and many more reasons why randomized is actually better for WotC. The thing people seem to ignore is that a company isn't making minis for you. They are making minis for themselves (to make money). They can only do so much to please the customer and still make a profit. Going the random route provides a much better profit than a visible pack. For Orcs, Goblins, Skeletons, etc, visible packs would probably sell great. But for Gricks, Warforged, Carrion Crawlers, etc, a visible pack is not going to sell well. And the more packs of Orcs selling, the less the other type of packs sell. With random, they can make sure they sell every pack.

This isn't just a WotC thing. This is a FLGs thing also. You will be screwing over your FLGs by not investing your money in all of the packs. We also would have less variety of creature types. We have around 1000 different minis right now and people still complain about not having this or that mini. Well, we'd have even less variety if the boosters were not random.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

Thanks for the mention. Whenever I see someone mention my site for the first time in a new thread, I like to give them a 10% discount on their next order. I'll PM you a discount code to use if you ever place an order.

There are so many reasons why non random packs won't work and many more reasons why randomized is actually better for WotC. The thing people seem to ignore is that a company isn't making minis for you. They are making minis for themselves (to make money). They can only do so much to please the customer and still make a profit. Going the random route provides a much better profit than a visible pack. For Orcs, Goblins, Skeletons, etc, visible packs would probably sell great. But for Gricks, Warforged, Carrion Crawlers, etc, a visible pack is not going to sell well. And the more packs of Orcs selling, the less the other type of packs sell. With random, they can make sure they sell every pack.

This isn't just a WotC thing. This is a FLGs thing also. You will be screwing over your FLGs by not investing your money in all of the packs. We also would have less variety of creature types. We have around 1000 different minis right now and people still complain about not having this or that mini. Well, we'd have even less variety if the boosters were not random.

If thats so-then how the Helen of Troy does a non-random minis game like Warhammer survive?

 

[shadzar]

There are so many reasons why non random packs won't work and many more reasons why randomized is actually better for WotC. The thing people seem to ignore is that a company isn't making minis for you. They are making minis for themselves (to make money).

Chain stores are pulling departments left and right. The randomized games just aren't selling enough in local stores in many areas to keep them around. The reason the board games will make it is because it IS a board game. WotC makes more money because more places are willing to carry the product. Also should there be just "mini" without the random, then they wouldn't have impulse shoppers wondering what it is when they read the package looking for some toys for Little Billy.

They see some monster toys in a package that Little Billy can have for a birthday present. Parents will be more likely to buy them AS toys, when nude or half-nude characters aren't hidden in a random booster like Succubus and Maralith. If they wanted Little Billy to have something with breasts to play with,. they would get him a Barbie doll.

How many times have you been in a store and seen Little Billy?

LB: Mom can I have this?
Mother: What is it?

Here is the impasse. Random boosters don't really show what it is, and then the word "randomized" and also "collectible" on it sends a chill up her spine not knowing a thing about it. Lets say it was a box of visible orcs...

LB: Some monsters. RAWR!
Mother: (Looks and decides if they are safe, notices them large so they wouldn't get sucked up by the vacuum, bright colors so easy to see if left in the floor, etc) Ok but just one, no more toys this month.

By showing what it is and not having those weighted words, the odds are selling those are regular old toys will be easier than having those scary words that means they will want more, or you really don't know what you are getting for your child.

Take Ravenloft and the Red Box set, why Walmart even puts those on the shelves. "Complete Game" tells them that there is little confusion for them or returns from their custoemrs that don't know what they are buying. Whatever it is it is a compelte game, unlike D&D RPG books, that they all wonder "Is it a game?", "Is it a book?", "What department do we put it in?"

Likewise randomized boosters can be confusing for these district managers trying to figure out what department things go in. A box of plastic toy men goes with the other toys.

If randomized worked so well, why has the parent company HASBRO never done it, and has always made things visible or defiend EXACTLY what is in the box for MANY years. Not to mention you don't need artwork for clear plastic bubble.

The randomized model cuts off many opportunities for sales, even if it does try a gimmick to get more product to sell. It ends up with a smaller global shelf space in specialized stores, wherein a more visible and understandable product has more consumer visibility as it could be in a much greater number of stores.

Even grocery stores have a toy section. When was the last time you saw D&D products at a grocery store besides the DVDs for the cartoon series and the 4 movies made over the years?

Non-random isn't just for the player, but gives the product a much wider audience which can make more money for WotC than the random model. They just cannot be as expensive as the HeroScape and past D&D minis. That shouldn't be hard if they are unpainted.

I have seen "D&D minis", or toys looking like them in all kinds of stores for many years, but the actual ones aren't in as many places due to them being so specialized a product.

What reasons are there that non-random won't work?

 

[Lordhawkins9]

There have been plenty of discussions about random/non-random, so I won't go into that.

I think one of the best things to do with the line could simply be a matter of marketing.

Stop pushing DDM's as a D&D accessory and start marketing them as a general toy. We gamers will know they can be used for D&D, but to a 5 year old...they don't care about D&D. However, they would care about a box of cool monsters they can play with.

Where I live, DDM only shows up where D&D books are sold. Not in Toys R Us. Not in Wal Mart.

Change the perception of the figures to a general toy and start selling to big toy sellers.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

IMO, DDM died because the skirmish game died.

Saturation is going to happen. In order to keep selling after the point of saturation, you need an underlying game that justifies someone like me buying his third or fourth Owlbear sculpt. ("Collector mentality," BTW, helps, but is not enough. I am an obsessive collector, having multiples of every set through the 14th or 15th, but without the skirmish game to supplement my OCD collecting, I just sorta ... got over it.)

The skirmish game died back in January 2008, when it switched to new rules in anticipation of 4E (in a desire to somewhat unify the 4E rules and the skirmish rules). Huge numbers of hardcore DDMers dumped the game. It has limped along, Spell-stitched Hobgoblin-like, ever since, shedding more and more players. (DDM used to be huge here in the Bay Area. Like, I knew dozens of regular players. Now I know nobody who plays it regularly, and the one guy I suspect still plays occasionally only does so online.)

At this point I'm not sure it's possible to create a product to either draw the old DDM crowd back to buying miniatures or to create a new core purchasing group. But if I were going to try:

(1) Create the game. From the beginning, build in a scheme to avoid power creep and rotate sets out.

(2) Produce semi-random boosters. This was not a bad idea when it was tried, but they did it backwards, IMO. They need to show the Commons, and randomize the rest.

(3) Limit the print runs. Think long-term sustainability and slightly lower profits, rather than flooding the market and getting more cash in the short-term.

 

[Diamond Cross]

I agree that the market is already saturated, and I think the line fell apart because WotC was selling mostly the same sorts of miniatures to mostly the same people.

But please, can we give the complaints about random packs a rest? The solution is right there in your face. You ignore it by choice. You can buy them individually, everyone knows that you can, every time this complaint is raised someone is quick to point that out. For crying out loud it was pointed out preemptively in the first post. I'm willing to bet you are hemorrhaging PMs from helpful people pointing out where to buy them.

You are driving me insane.

Well, all the stores in my area and entire county only sold the random packs and not sold them individually, as you claim.

I have seen some internet sites that did sell them individually, but usually at hyped up prices and not only that you have to pay S&H.