How to stop Tumblers?

[hong]

How many games are played at higher levels (i.e. above 10th)? 1/3rd? 1/4th?

100% for me. Every long-term game I've been in since 2000 has got to 17th level or higher.

But your point here, although valid from a time perspective, assumes one wants a game with virtually no AoOs at higher levels.

No AoOs for movement. There are still plenty of AoOs for other things. And yes, fewer AoOs for movement is a GOOD THING. By encouraging people to move around, it reduces the tendency for combat to become a series of full attacks where everyone just slogs away at each other. It also increases survivability when fighting melee brute monsters, many of whom can take down a tank in 1-2 rounds, never mind a lightly-armoured rogue.

 

[stevelabny]

Did this thread really go 5 pages without anyone mentioning the Song and Silence fix? or did I just miss it?

The opponent gets a Reflex save with the DC being the Tumble check. Opponent gets +10 if you tumble through his area. Period. Gives higher level opponents a chance to get an AOO.

One roll. Already on your character sheet.

Now someone just has to tell me the right way to fix Combat Casting.

 

[Legildur]

Did this thread really go 5 pages without anyone mentioning the Song and Silence fix? or did I just miss it?

The opponent gets a Reflex save with the DC being the Tumble check. Opponent gets +10 if you tumble through his area. Period. Gives higher level opponents a chance to get an AOO.

One roll. Already on your character sheet.

Now someone just has to tell me the right way to fix Combat Casting.

There have been other optional rules raised as a solution.

And why couldn't you just apply the same Reflex save against the Concentration check?

I don't like the Reflex save, personally, but it is published.

 

[Particle_Man]

Maybe its the title of the topic, which seems to be saying, "How do we screw players out of Tumble?"

As the OP, let me correct a few assumptions:

1) I never asked to have the Tumble rules changed. I only wanted to know what I could do *within the rules as they currently exist* to stop tumblers.

2) I am not the DM in the campaign. I am a player of a Knight. I was looking for rules legal ways to stop the "bad guys" from tumbling away and escaping, thus becoming more effective at my job (to hold and defeat the bad guys). Thus the thread drift into whether or not Tumble should be house ruled is irrelevant to my concerns.

 

[Mark Chance]

I only wanted to know what I could do *within the rules as they currently exist* to stop tumblers.

While I may have missed this suggestion, one great way to stop a tumbler is to kill him. Seriously. Bad guy tumbles. Next PC to act shouts, "Hey! Look! A tumbler! Let's kill him." Then everyone attacks the tumbler.

 

[Nail]

Thus the thread drift into whether or not Tumble should be house ruled is irrelevant to my concerns.

That's the funny thing about message boards: They don't necessarily go the direction the OP intended.

Does that make the resulting discussion invalid?

 

[SlagMortar]

2) I am not the DM in the campaign. I am a player of a Knight. I was looking for rules legal ways to stop the "bad guys" from tumbling away and escaping, thus becoming more effective at my job (to hold and defeat the bad guys). Thus the thread drift into whether or not Tumble should be house ruled is irrelevant to my concerns.

I think the best suggestion was to ready a trip attack. Actually, trip attacks in general are a pretty good help. The tumbler can still stand up and then try to tumble away, but they can only get one move action away.

Tanglefoot bags will help make sure they can't get away too quickly, although many tumblers have good touch ACs.

Edit: I know KD doesn't like the ready an action solution to any problem. However, just as attacks of opportunity are a way the designers chose to help cope with the turn based system, ready actions are another way.

 

[KarinsDad]

Edit: I know KD doesn't like the ready an action solution to any problem. However, just as attacks of opportunity are a way the designers chose to help cope with the turn based system, ready actions are another way.

I actually like ready actions. I think they are an integral mechanic in the game system.

What I dislike is when a new ability is introduced to the game system and the most reasonable way to counter that ability is to ready an action. To me, all abilities should have pros and cons. If the only reasonable counter to an ability (feat, spell, whatever) is a ready action, the ability is probably broken. IMO.

Note: This applies basically to significant (typically) offensive or defensive abilities. I am not talking about getting a +1 to a skill or a save or some such.

 

[SlagMortar]

I actually like ready actions. I think they are an integral mechanic in the game system.

What I dislike is when a new ability is introduced to the game system and the most reasonable way to counter that ability is to ready an action. To me, all abilities should have pros and cons. If the only reasonable counter to an ability (feat, spell, whatever) is a ready action, the ability is probably broken. IMO.

An entirely defensible position. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Nail]

What I dislike is when a new ability is introduced to the game system and the most reasonable way to counter that ability is to ready an action. To me, all abilities should have pros and cons. If the only reasonable counter to an ability (feat, spell, whatever) is a ready action, the ability is probably broken. IMO.

I remember pointing to this kind of statement by KD as <sig.> material a while back. It's good stuff.

If the only significant and reasonble way of countering a nasty ability is to "Ready an Action", the nasty ability is probably broken.

Tumble, IMHO, is not such an ability.