How to stop Tumblers?

[ruleslawyer]

FYI (and yes, this is the Rules thread, but IIRC, that doesn't mean that *any* discussion of house rules or alternate systems is prohibited when discussing a rule), Arcana Evolved uses 10 + BAB in place of 15, and 20 + BAB in place of 25. I actually was using those numbers *before* that system saw the light of day. Iron Heroes uses an opposed base attack check (opponent's BAB + Str or Dex + 1d20) to set the DC. Personally, I find that either of those variants works better than the RAW.

IMHO, the balance problem with Tumble using fixed DCs is this: The investment to beat the DC is trivial to the tumbler (since pretty much everyone who ever bothers using this skill has light armor, high Dex, and enough skill points to boost it), but negates a more significant investment (namely, Combat Reflexes, reach weapon use, and other battlefield control, which does entail a feat or weapon opportunity cost) on the part of the "tumble-ee." Asking the counter-tumble specialist to spend more feats to beat tumblers just seems out of whack balance-wise.

There's also my own personal pet peeve, which is that I hate automatic skill checks related to combat actions. Having more opponents can help, but really, how high can you stack the DC at +2 per additional opponent? A 12th-level rogue who's *not* optimized for tumbling at all should have a Tumble check of around +20; he can go right through opponents with relative certainly even when he's got to go through two or three of them.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Back to the OP: There are very few things you can do with certainty (as in "that don't require getting past a save"). The easiest are:

1) Ready to trip or grapple.

2) Have a caster buddy create some "difficult" terrain for you with rock to mud, spike stones, or similar stuff.

3) Assuming you're a reach weapon wielder, if you see a potential tumbler in the opposing group, just ready an attack until just after he tumbles past you; then 5' step away from him and attack. If he's a tumbler, he's probably not using a reach weapon, being an annoying little rogue), so whack him and he'll be unlikely to get you. After all, he's moved, so he gets no 5' step to close with you.

 

[hong]

3) Assuming you're a reach weapon wielder, if you see a potential tumbler in the opposing group, just ready an attack until just after he tumbles past you; then 5' step away from him and attack. If he's a tumbler, he's probably not using a reach weapon, being an annoying little rogue), so whack him and he'll be unlikely to get you. After all, he's moved, so he gets no 5' step to close with you.

Assuming he hadn't moved the full 30' distance (or whatever), couldn't he just keep moving and close in?

Actually, here's another thing: suppose you ready an attack to trip someone. They move in, you attack and trip, they go down. Now suppose they have the Tumble skill to make the check to stand again as a free action. Can they keep moving? Ie, is falling down considered to end their move?

 

[Thanee]

How to stop Tumblers?

You don't. That's the point.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Assuming he hadn't moved the full 30' distance (or whatever), couldn't he just keep moving and close in?

Actually, here's another thing: suppose you ready an attack to trip someone. They move in, you attack and trip, they go down. Now suppose they have the Tumble skill to make the check to stand again as a free action. Can they keep moving? Ie, is falling down considered to end their move?

they can keep going, but thats a really high dc off the top of my head.

 

[Darklone]

One more vote to use tumble as it is: At low levels, it's far from automatic success and at high levels, it's a disadvantage to get in only one attack (except for scouts).

Any change will worsen gameflow.

 

[Nail]

Any change will worsen gameflow.

...and make combat looooooonger....adding more rolls to high level combat throught house rules is a serious mistake. As it is each players turn takes 10 minutes.....

 

[Darklone]

...and make combat looooooonger....adding more rolls to high level combat throught house rules is a serious mistake. As it is each players turn takes 10 minutes.....

I have a small sandclass on the table. 2 minutes.

 

[Rokes]

For what it's worth, IMC the DC to tumble past someone is 10 + all threatening opponents BAB. Through someone is 20 + just that opponents BAB.

Level 1 Rogue with 4 Ranks and +3 for dex, can tumble around a goblin 85% of the time.

Level 5 Rogue with 8 Ranks and a +3 for dex, can tumble around a troll 90% of the time.

Level 14 Rogue with 18 Ranks and a +5 dex mod, can tumble around a Nalfeshnee 100% of the time.

At first glance it looks easy to make the tumble check, however, it assumes said character is maxing out their ranks in tumble. And while this is usually true of a Rogue up to a certain level, the way it is now, they can stop at level 8, since they can make a DC 15 with their eyes closed.

 

[Nail]

I have a small sandclass on the table. 2 minutes.

Nice thought, but seriously...."How do you adjudicate that?"

If I've decided my actions, finished rolling my dice, but have yet to finish adding them up.....and my 2 minutes are up?

.....Not to mention all of the ways you can lengthen your turn and get additional actions.....