So what do you currently do when those situations come up? Do you kill the PC? Do the players seem to resent that?
To clarify we werent actually playing 5e. We were in 13th age in which the flight mechanic is at any time you can declare you flee and you suffer a campaign loss (something bad happens). They wanted to run so i told them what the campaign loss would be (potion ingredients). They were unwilling to accept this so everyone else fled into the sewers and the last guy got captured by the dragon.@p_johnston What were the circumstances surrounding this "your potion ingredients or your life" scenario?
I ask because one of the reasons I've seen players behave this way is due to the DM trying to subvert their agency.
From one of my own experiences, the DM contrived an encounter where he intended that our PCs would be captured. When, despite an absolutely overwhelmingly designed encounter, we actually managed to persevere, he contrived to have the enemy threaten an incapacitated PC with a poison he made up on the spot that instantly killed with no saving throw (this was 3e, where every poison had a DC, even if it was impossibly high). We refused to surrender, he killed the PC, and the players basically just rebelled and declared the campaign over.
I'm not saying you are doing anything like that.
However, as I said, I have seen that kind of behavior as a reaction to heavy handed plot hammering.
If that's not the case, then you may simply need to follow through. After all, death is one form of defeat, and if the player chooses that route then validate their agency and follow through.
So the problem is no ones happy. They arent happy with the characters dieing. Im not happy with having to work in new PCs or having campaigns end.So what do you currently do when those situations come up? Do you kill the PC? Do the players seem to resent that?
Some players have no issue with their PC dying for a cause, even a seemingly trivial one. If that’s your players then I wouldn’t worry. If they take issue then there’s a number of reasons it could be. Figure out the reason then an appropriate solution should come easily enough.
Naw all mid to late 20s.Are these teenagers by chance?
I don't try and defeat. If I wanted the characters dead I could kill them. I run hard combats because I find them more satisfying and fun as both a DM and Player. I never force them into combats they can't win and try to very clearly earmark when a foe is much to powerful for them up to the point of straight up telling them. If I find I have made a fight that they have no reasonable way to win because I messed up I'll happily admit it and walk it back.Take the hint and stop trying to defeat or hand out setbacks.
IF you are unwilling to do this, let someone else DM.
Don't try to 'teach lessons' or.
Thing is, they seem not to.I run hard combats because I find them more satisfying and fun as both a DM and Player.
I think making a show of rolling in the open. Let the dice decide. If the players escape, then ask for a little break to think of what happens next. Maybe the players will get away with it, and that will be very memorable. And if they don't, well they all saw the dice.Me, I'd just run it neutrally and let the chips - and, sometimes, characters - fall where they may.
When I hear this, I wonder what has primed these players to respond so disproportionately that they cling to a small victory and escalate the stakes to be life or death?This came to a head last session when the party was more willing to have a character effectively die rather then give up the ingredients to make 2 potions they had gathered that session. This is just one example of many that has come up.
Seriously. This should have been the very first suggestion.Discuss it with them as if they were reasonable adults. Try to have an open discussion and ask leading questions, like "last session you ____ and it meant your PC died. What do you think should have happened?" Try to have an open discussion and avoid any kind of blame game. If that doesn't work and they'd rather die than admit defeat then they die.
Rinse and repeat all steps until you have a resolution.![]()
I get the impression though that the OP doesn’t think it’s fun. If that’s the case, there is a problem, and the OP needs to communicate that with the players.Talk to the group of players. Ask if they think the current tendencies are fun.
If so, no problem. Continue on as is.
This is really crucial information. You’re getting answers from people thinking that you contrived some kind of scenario to take the players’ potion ingredients by force, when the reality is that this was a specific mechanic of the system you’re using. I think you might get better answers in a 13th age discussion community.To clarify we werent actually playing 5e. We were in 13th age in which the flight mechanic is at any time you can declare you flee and you suffer a campaign loss (something bad happens). They wanted to run so i told them what the campaign loss would be (potion ingredients). They were unwilling to accept this so everyone else fled into the sewers and the last guy got captured by the dragon.
Also this was just the most recent example that led me to seek help. There are a fair few other examples that i could also list.
P.s. also the fight the were fleeing was a semi random encounter caused by them choosing to harvest bone marrow (long story) at noon in the middle of a city moments after a very loud public fight. Also i personally think they could have won it just would have been hard.
Hold up. All but 1 PC fled? IMO, that changes everything about the scenario. IMO when 1 player acts that out of sync with the rest of the party then most likely he was either extremely bored with the session or with his PC. He also could have felt the encounter was a 'gotcha' or in someway unfair and used his PC actions to showcase his dislike for a DM decision he felt that way about. It's hard to precisely put the finger on it without more examples or more insight into what the players say about play.To clarify we werent actually playing 5e. We were in 13th age in which the flight mechanic is at any time you can declare you flee and you suffer a campaign loss (something bad happens). They wanted to run so i told them what the campaign loss would be (potion ingredients). They were unwilling to accept this so everyone else fled into the sewers and the last guy got captured by the dragon.
More examples tend to help pinpoint the problem(s).Also this was just the most recent example that led me to seek help. There are a fair few other examples that i could also list.
So the funny thing is Ive straight up asked tgem before "do you want me to dial it back." And was told its fine.
So the problem is no ones happy. They arent happy with the characters dieing. Im not happy with having to work in new PCs or having campaigns end.
To clarify we werent actually playing 5e. We were in 13th age in which the flight mechanic is at any time you can declare you flee and you suffer a campaign loss (something bad happens).
So some more examples from 5e.More examples tend to help pinpoint the problem(s).
So if it was specific to this scenario i would but my problem is a more underlying one. Ive seen similiar behavior in d&d for much longer the new system just helped clarify it. Im not worried about one bad session or incident. Im worried about a pattern of behavior.This is really crucial information. You’re getting answers from people thinking that you contrived some kind of scenario to take the players’ potion ingredients by force, when the reality is that this was a specific mechanic of the system you’re using. I think you might get better answers in a 13th age discussion community.
So talking to one of my players he described a feeling of "not wanting retreat to always mean a lose." And that he feels the consequences of retreating are campaign ending.A few thoughts.
It sounds like your players are good with the level of challenge you provide and that you are as well - as long as the challenge doesn't produce pc death. The problem in making the game challenging is that it's going to most always mean PC death at least for most games. However, it sounds like the game you are playing doesn't force death on players, that it's very much their choice. So why are they choosing PC death that you claim neither you nor they want instead of accepting the setback? If you don't know then that's the vital piece of info you need to find out and it starts with a conversation with the players.