How useful is Hide?

[igavskoga]

The problem is that 3.x D&D isn't really equipped to handle this sort of thing. If you're in a 30' x 30' room and there are a couple of waist-high stacks of crates in there, in real life you could keep the cover between you and someone walking around the room by moving at the same time he did. But in 3.x D&D, your target gets his full 30 feet of move before you get to move at all - and thus, he could easily walk around the cover and see you (again, with no need for a Spot check) and you wouldn't be able to move away to prevent this until your turn, which would be too late.

If its in combat time couldn't you just ready an action to move when would be at a point to attain line of sight around your cover, thus maintaining cover from crates between you and him?

 

[Kmart Kommando]

But why would he need a Spot check? As soon as you don't have cover anymore, you can't Hide and thus your target automatically sees you.

Have you ever walked into a room and the DM calls for a spot check to see a hidden creature? Same principle applies. Someone is trying to hide, and someone else needs to beat their hide check with a spot check. Only if they had blindsense would they automatically know what square you're in, and only with blindsight would they automatically 'see' you without a spot check. You only need cover to hide, not to stay hidden. Nowhere in the rules does it say need to stay behind cover or in concealment to hide. All you need is the distraction or something to break up your silhouette, and you can hide. The actual roll tells how good you've hidden yourself, and what the spot DC is to find you. If you rule it any other way, then there is no reason to put any skill points in any perception or stealth skills, because the fighter with +2 spot is going to see the rogue with +26 hide every time. Now how much sense does that make? :\

 

[WarlockLord]

Man, this thread is making the shadowcaster class (Tome of Magic) look so much better. The bend perspective mystery can be used to peek around corners, and you can ambush and kill whoever's coming. You also have a variety of ways to gain concealment, yeah, it's a lot of places, but not everywhere (desert, plains, any open space)

 

[WarlockLord]

How many times does the hero (or the badass villain) hide up in the rafters or suspended above the door, then jump out and take somebody unaware?

What are the rules for jumping down on top of somebody (i.e. landing on enemy target?)

 

[Grog]

If its in combat time couldn't you just ready an action to move when would be at a point to attain line of sight around your cover, thus maintaining cover from crates between you and him?

The problem is that you can only ready one action. Say your enemy moves ten feet and is about to see you, so your readied action goes off and you move ten feet to stay hidden. But your enemy still has twenty feet of move left and you've used up your readied action, so he can move fifteen feet and see you and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[Grog]

You only need cover to hide, not to stay hidden.

I'm not sure that the rules actually support this idea.

 

[Grog]

But if he failed his spot check before, he doesn't know you are there and is suprised.

What do you mean before? If you're around the corner of a hallway, he wouldn't get to make a Spot check, but as soon as he walks around the corner, he sees you (no cover, no hiding). Where does the Spot check come in?

 

[Kmart Kommando]

You don't need full cover to hide, just cover.

Haven't you ever played chase when you were little? You run around the corner, double back real quick and scare the crap out of someone following you, because you weren't quite where they were expecting you to be, even though they saw you go around the corner.

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

SPOT (WIS)
Check: The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

Oh, look, underlined and bolded SRD-quoted text that says you can use a spot check to detect a person trying to hide. Nothing about automatically seeing anyone who is trying to hide. If you're trying to hide, then they need to beat your hide check to see you, that's how opposed skill checks work. Stop trying to nerf skill monkeys and sneak attackers. :\
Hiding works like this in real life, in movies, and in D&D straight from the SRD's text. Complete Adventurer even throws in the rules for darting between hiding places, just like people who don't want to be seen really do.

 

[Li Shenron]

But why would he need a Spot check? As soon as you don't have cover anymore, you can't Hide and thus your target automatically sees you.

In fact I didn't say that he doesn't see you! I said that he sees you a moment too late, so that you get a surprise round before he can react.

The problem is that 3.x D&D isn't really equipped to handle this sort of thing....

Sometimes I think it's the human mind which isn't really equipped to handle this sort of things We choose some rules to describe the world around, and when something doesn't fit... we think it's the world that is wrong and not our rules!

That is why there always be a DM to play a RPG properly.

 

[Crothian]

What do you mean before? If you're around the corner of a hallway, he wouldn't get to make a Spot check, but as soon as he walks around the corner, he sees you (no cover, no hiding). Where does the Spot check come in?

It comes in when the hider has cover and I wasn't assuming full cover like it seems you are.