How useful is Hide?

[Kmart Kommando]

The Hide skill isn't about getting behind something so no one can see you, it's about finding a place to hide where you can blend in so no one can see you or keeping from being noticed until it's too late for the observer. Just running around the corner to break line of sight isn't hiding. Breaking line of sight and then crouching down next to the statue in the hall, or blending into that little patch of shadow in the corner, is hiding.

 

[frankthedm]

Stop trying to nerf skill monkeys and sneak attackers. :\

Those who want to give the hide skill more power will use the CA interpretation , but the core rules don't let you take away a dex bonus with hide. You hide until the initiative cycle over. Then you surprise the foe again when you restart combat cycle with a surprise round. Hiding is not invisibility, it may sound like mincing words, but successfully hiding means you are visually undetected not visually undetectable.

The core rules do not nerf the sneak attack mechanic. The core rules love sneak attack. The flanking rules allow for a rogue to sneak attack 50% more than a thief could ever hope to backstab. And then there is no possible way to focus on a rogue to prevent a barrage of sneak attacks when all other foes around you pose you no threat. Many spells allow the rogue to continually sneak attack like improved invisibility and blink. And the rules for touch attacks allow a rogue with a zeroth level wand ignore all a foe's armor for a frosty sneak attack.

 

[marune]

[...] And the rules for touch attacks allow a rogue with a zeroth level wand ignore all a foe's armor for a frosty sneak attack.

Hmm.. I don't like it. If you have only a standard action left, always use a Wand/Spell instead of a ranged weapon, something is wrong...

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Those who want to give the hide skill more power will use the CA interpretation , but the core rules don't let you take away a dex bonus with hide. You hide until the initiative cycle over. Then you surprise the foe again when you restart combat cycle with a surprise round. Hiding is not invisibility, it may sound like mincing words, but successfully hiding means you are visually undetected not visually undetectable.

Well, then your set of core books is incomplete. Complete books are valid sources. 'Core only' is like playing Atari. Sure, it's sort of fun, but the resolution sucks.

 

[Kalshane]

The Complete books are optional sources. Only the PHB, DMG, MM and errata are core sources. It is up to the individual DM to decide if they want to expand their game beyond those core sources, and what additions to use.

That said, I prefer the CAdv interpratation. It's very easy IRL to move from a place of hiding and cross a good distance of open, well-lit space and still catch someone unawares if you position yourself correctly and time it right.

 

[Zaruthustran]

You only need cover to hide, not to stay hidden.

Wrong. You have to maintain the conditions that allowed you to make a hide check.

Example:
1. Larry the rogue crouches behind a trash can. Bob the wizard then walks into the room. Bob rolls Spot vs. Larry's Hide, and fails.

In this case, Larry is hidden.

2. Bob the wizard then Disintegrates the trash can.

Oops! Larry's cover is gone, meaning it is impossible for him to Hide, meaning Bob sees him--no roll needed, Bob just automatically sees Larry.

Nowhere in the rules does it say need to stay behind cover or in concealment to hide.

You quoted the rule yourself: "You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check."

No cover? No concealment? No hide check. Otherwise, a person could step behind a tree, make a Hide check, then step back out into the open--and still be hidden.

That makes absolutely zero sense. And completely obviates the need for the supernatural ability Hide in Plain Sight.

All you need is the distraction or something to break up your silhouette, and you can hide.

You also have to be unobserved. If you're observed, even casually, you can't hide. So if Larry, after having his cover removed and being spotted, decides to walk into some shadows... sorry, no dice. He's observed. Larry has to first completely break line of sight to Bob. He could run around a corner, or go into shadows that provide 100% concealment, or whatever. But once he's spotted he's out of luck.

The actual roll tells how good you've hidden yourself, and what the spot DC is to find you. If you rule it any other way, then there is no reason to put any skill points in any perception or stealth skills, because the fighter with +2 spot is going to see the rogue with +26 hide every time. Now how much sense does that make? :\

Er, of course a fighter with +0 spot will see a rogue--if the rogue is in the middle of the room with nothing to hide behind/in. That just makes sense. Hide is a mundane skill, not a supernatural ability. I think what you're looking for is Hide In Plain Sight.

-z

 

[Kmart Kommando]

A rogue standing in the middle of a bare room isn't trying to hide. But a rogue hanging from the rafters above the door in an otherwise bare room, is trying to hide, and the fighter has almost no chance to just happen to look up and spot him with that +2, even if the rogue has nothing to hide behind, because he's not standing out in the open, he's Hiding. Unless the fighter's player says, "I walk into the room slowly, and look up above the door" his +2 isn't going to beat the rogue's +26.
Spot isn't just "I see you" it's also "does he notice the rogue trying to blend in with the background?" and "does he process the visual of the vaguely man-shaped lump under the bushes?" and, in the case of invisibility, "there's something here, I think I saw some movement over there for a second"

 

[marune]

A rogue standing in the middle of a bare room isn't trying to hide. But a rogue hanging from the rafters above the door in an otherwise bare room, is trying to hide

Not in RAW, you need cover or concealment to hide. Also, IME asking players to make spot check for looking in "up" direction is big no-no.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

The 'looking up' part is covered by the +x value of their spot check. If it's higher, they're more likely to look up and see something out of the ordinary. If they're sitting on a +2 spot check at 15th level, then they deserve to be ambushed by the guy hanging from the rafters. Another thing that D&D fails to come through, not enough skill points to go around, for the most part.
If they specifically said look up, then I'd probably let them see him automatically, as they actually thought to check up there, barring any shadows or spells he used to make his hide check better.