D&D 5E How viable is 5E to play at high levels?

WotC's marketing, which clearly gives off the impression the game works just fine at high level, is just that: marketing, and that WotC coldly gambles so few gamers ever realize the weaknesses that they just don't have to fulfil their empty promises.
I don't see where the marketing - such as it is - particularly speaks to levels. I mean, the published APs mostly go 1-15, just about everything starts at 1st.

Besides, 'breaking down' at higher level is just part of what D&D is and virtually always has been throughout it's history. It's part of the feel, in marketing terms, the brand identity. If you don't like it, you wrap campaigns and start new ones when you get there, if you do like, you're incensed when it's 'fixed.'
 

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Anyone very familiar with 1e knows that if 1e characters had magic items and options like weapon specialization, the 1e play was not viable with published content above about 10th level either. By 10th-12th level, a competent party of players with good equipment could handily defeat any published monster, including the fiend lords and any DM that wanted to challenge such a party would need to invent their own content. It was I think assumed that any DM who had players of that had "earned" such "high level" PCs would have sufficient experience to do so.

A 1e Marilith was not a "CR 16" foe. It was about CR 8. Even six of them was a reasonably easy fight for a 13th or 14th level party. The limitations of published 1e monsters I've discussed in this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...to-Challenge-a-Party-of-13th-level-and-Higher

So it would seem to me that the explanation "5e is a lot like 1e", would be a confession that as written 5e is not very viable for high level play at all.

Ho boy...
It is a lot like 1e. And please fully quote or do not quote at all. I did say that it had some of the 3e and 4e concepts mixed in. Namely tiers. 1e did not have these concepts merged in. A 10th level character in 1e was an achievement. Today, it is just an other chump. What I was refering to was the feel, the fluidity and the pace at which both editions are played. Where a 15th level party will encounter 1 marilith in 5th the same party of 1e would see many more with many more demons to join the fray.

High level challenging play was possible in 1e. In some other post we did talk about that. It required a lot of work but it was quite possible. The best example are the Isle of the ape. 18+ and Bloodstone mines 18+.

Just stopping and saying:" Hey bad example! They're not the same!" is quite beside the point. Of course they're not the same. We are 4 (should I say 5? with 3.x...) editions later. There will be differences and major ones at that. Our friend was refering to the marilith as if it has always been a solo type monsters. It is far from the truth. The marilith of today is a throw back to 1e in the sense that now it is not a solo type boss. It is simply a CR16 monster like any other of its kind. The only thing you did is to prove me right while trying to prove me wrong again.
 

The only thing you did is to prove me right while trying to prove me wrong again.

Your rightness seems to be in your own eyes a non-falsifiable claim.

Also, I quote only to get your attention or to be specific about what I'm addressing. If anyone wants to read your whole post, it's right there. I don't feel the need to have whole posted quoted, nor do I see how that clarifies anything.

A 10th level character in 1e was an achievement. Today, it is just an other chump.

You seem to be taking a lot for granted with respect to play style, campaign demographics and so forth. There is a noted tendency of 5e writers to get away from the 1-20 adventure path assumptions of 3e in favor of more limited 1e style adventure paths that cover a smaller range of levels. This suggests that perhaps there is no reason to assume 10th level is just a chump, even if we are talking about silly campaign worlds like FR where in the past every bartender seemed to be 10th level.

The best example are the Isle of the ape. 18+ and Bloodstone mines 18+.

If 'Isle of the Ape' and 'Bloodstone Mines' are the best examples, then you've lost the argument. Both are terrible in their own fashion. 'Isle of the Ape' pulls a typical Gygaxian trick of now that you've given the party more power than you can handle, you take it away in various arbitrary fashions - destroying items, removing access to spells or nerfing them. This is not particularly fun as a more than one off situation. If you can't allow the players to retain and use their nifty high level abilities to challenge them, then its pretty much proof high level play isn't particularly viable. Likewise, the Bloodstone mines series is pretty ridiculous, grindy, and arbitrary and has been (rightly) soundly mocked more times than need repeating.

A better example would be 2e's 'Return to the Tomb of Horrors', but even it suffers some problems with needing arbitrary death mechanisms to create challenge - and I don't mean things like the dark fire or the traps, I mean things like 'If this monster that you can't avoid hits you, then you die no save' sort of situations.

Our friend was refering to the marilith as if it has always been a solo type monsters. It is far from the truth. The marilith of today is a throw back to 1e in the sense that now it is not a solo type boss. It is simply a CR16 monster like any other of its kind.

This is frankly ridiculous. In 1e we didn't even have a concept of 'solo type monsters'. The concept didn't really develop until 4e. But whether we had the concept or not, in 1e a Marilith could very well been used as a solo type encounter - or what we'd now call a 'boss monster' - for a party of say 8th level.

In later editions, simply being CR16 (or whatever) meant that you could use it as a 'solo type monster' for a party of 4 12th to 14th level characters. Only in 4e did they start playing with the concept of 'solo type monster', and mostly when they did so it was intended to address action economy issues involved with one creature needing more actions in order to address issues like smoothing the damage spikes by spreading the damage and avoiding a solo monster being what you might called 'stun locked' by 'save or suck' effects (which was a problem that was mostly noted in 3e with its robust 'save or suck' spells) and so forth. The legacy of that is still visible in 'legendary' monsters.

But a 1e Type V has multiple attacks, high AC, spell resistance, and immunities and so is in 1e a very good choice as a 'solo type monster' and indeed one of the better ones. The only thing that is 'wrong' with it is that with just 8+8 HD, it's going to have a very hard time hitting the high AC's expected of high level characters with good equipment, and this renders it more of a mook once you get to 12th level or so. It's not unreasonable to suggest that a DM with a background in 1e, 2e and 3e would expect a Marilith to be useable as a solo monster. I suppose the comparison now is that to use a Marilith as a solo monster, you have to pit a party at 8th level or so against a CR 16 monster. But not only do I suspect that this goes against 5e guidelines, I suspect it throws encounter budgets and XP budgets and so forth all haywire.

Fundamentally, for all your claims about how right you are, you still aren't proving 5e as written is particularly viable at high level play, and comparisons to 1e - which also wasn't particularly viable for high level play unless the DM ratcheted down the PCs access to ability scores, player options and equipment or else invented a lot of content - only reinforce the truth of that.

Yes, creating good challenges at high level has been a long running problem with D&D, but it is also true that there seems to have been the same lack of play testing high level play we saw in 3e and 4e as well.

What exactly are you trying to prove that you are right about?
 

Yes, creating good challenges at high level has been a long running problem with D&D, but it is also true that there seems to have been the same lack of play testing high level play we saw in 3e and 4e as well.
Nod. High-level 3e devolved into 'rocket tag' (or very complex caster-on-casters contests of pre-buffing & dispelling), sure, and they did come right out and say that their surveys indicated folks didn't much play campaigns past 10th level (consistent with high level not working so great back in the day), and therefor didn't playtest at those levels. 4e was notoriously playtested on lunch hours and it's production rushed so there wouldn't be a gap in product like the two years between Essentials & 5e. After a year or so of 'playtesting in the field,' though, MM3 solos were actually pretty workable, and the tight numeric 'treadmill' scaling remained broadly workable at very high levels - which, obviously, felt different from classic D&D or 3e (or 5e, now).

In 1e we didn't even have a concept of 'solo type monsters'. The concept didn't really develop until 4e.
Only in the same sense there was no 'concept' of a defender until 4e - that is, the concept was there the whole time, 4e just provided some explicit mechanical support and slapped a jargon label on it. In 1e, there were no encounter design guideline per se, so no formal/numeric guidance about what monster(s) would provide what challenge to a given-size party of a given level. But there was a 'Number appearing' entry in the MM, and it was, for some monsters, '1.' They were, perforce, solo monsters.

More explicitly, in 3e, a lone CR = party level monster was nominally a challenge (a speedbump) for a party of 4. Any monster. So they were all at-level solos. (Actually, in retrospect, the high level of detail and customization you could go into with a 3e monster was quite fitting for a 'solo!')
Similarly, in 5e, a lone Dire Wolf or Ghoul, at CR 1 (200 exp) is neatly a Medium challenge for a party of 4 1st-level PCs. All CR 1+ monsters are thus de-facto solos. In fact, once they start ganging up, you need to apply a multiplier to calculate their true challenge.

But whether we had the concept or not, in 1e a Marilith could very well been used as a solo type encounter - or what we'd now call a 'boss monster' - for a party of say 8th level.
With a number appearing of 1-3, you could expect to a third of the time, right? ;) But, like all Demons, it could Gate in other demons (even if it didn't like doing so)...
...and had real Magic Resistance.

Fundamentally, for all your claims about how right you are, you still aren't proving 5e as written is particularly viable at high level play, and comparisons to 1e - which also wasn't particularly viable for high level play - only reinforce the truth of that.
5e /is/ trying to evoke the feel of the classic game. Gotta consider it successful, on that level.

Mechanically viable for the same kind of 6-8 combat encounter pacing you had in the sweet spot would be 'viable,' sure, 5e, like most editions doesn't deliver that. But you can still run it at high level, you just run it differently. Which shouldn't be a shock. You need to run the game differently for a party of a Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, & Bard than you would for a party of Battlemaster, Berserker, Thief, and Bannerette.
Any two parties, really. ;)
 
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Anyone very familiar with 1e knows that if 1e characters had magic items and options like weapon specialization, the 1e play was not viable with published content above about 10th level either. By 10th-12th level, a competent party of players with good equipment could handily defeat any published monster, including the fiend lords and any DM that wanted to challenge such a party would need to invent their own content. .


I don't think I agree with this. Obviously our own experiences vary, but 1e was my preferred edition that we played from 1981 when I started all the way up to 2012. What you're claiming doesn't seem to be accurate to my experiences at all. About the only thing I agree with is that 9th level is considered "high level". But it still is very much viable above 10th level. The D series and Q module are all very deadly to PCs level 10-14.

For example, a 10th level PC still failed saving throws half the time or more. Extremely critical when you remember AD&D had save or die effects. A 15th level magic user for example needs an 11 or higher to make a poison save. How many things in 1e had poison? A lot. Every freaking where. And if you failed it was none of the mamby-pamby take a bit of damage and a penalty to your attacks. It was death. Instant.

Hit points were much lower as well. A 10th level fighter with a 16 CON is only going to have 70 or so hit points. A failed save against a 10 HD old or ancient dragon kills him instantly. It gets even more lethal at levels above 9 because you no longer roll for HP or get your CON bonus. A 15th level MU is only going to have around 30 hp. Even if he or he makes their save against dragon breath, it's death.

1e also had level draining monsters, and several at higher levels.

And 1e higher level monsters had very high magic resistance.

So yeah, I have to disagree with your position that high level AD&D was not viable, and especially disagree with your claim that by 10-12th level a competent party of players could handily defeat any published monster. I can't see how that is remotely possible unless you're playing a completely different game with different books than what I have. I'm not even talking about demon lords, I'm talking about "regular" monsters like a Balor, Vampire, dragon, chimera, beholder, t rex, ghost, banshee, giants, etc, etc. Even the lowly rot grubs can be deadly to a high level party. 1e, at any level, you had to be careful. Really careful. In virtually all ways, 1e was much tougher than any other edition after it, even in the teen levels.

Also, a marilith in 1e was 7+7 HD. That's not a CR8. That's about a CR4. CR =/= HD from older editions
 

What exactly are you trying to prove that you are right about?

Read the trend again. If you don't understand. But I'll give you a hint that you answered yourself. A marilith in 5e is not a solo challenge for 15th level characters... catch it? Why you brought up 8th level characters to back up your claim is beyond my understanding... we're talking high level characters. Keep that in mind would you?

In addition to your post above. Again you just take the parts of the post that suits your argumentation to the detriment of the essence. You want to "win" an argument by simply using a quote here and there and ignoring the rest of the posts or trend. You don't try to see the point or to understand. You just see a sentence that you don't agree with and you jump to conlusions (often falses.) That is your choice. Not mine. You keep standing in you little "I know better" cloud and keep ignoring what shows you otherwise. That, again, is your choice.

I ran more than my share of first edition campaings and many were quite high levels with casters able to throw more than two 9th level spells. Never have I had trouble to make challenging adventure. If you hate "Gygaxian" style so much, what are you doing with D&D where the "Gygaxian" playstyle was born and an integral part of the game? I'd recommend you to go another game system than would more match your style.

Saying that classic adventures were bad is your taste only. It is not a fact. We had quite a blast playing them. If they were so bad, D&D would be dead by now. Yet we are now at its fifth incarnation. It is a legacy from these times. Maybe the playstyle that was prevalent then was not for you. You keep pretending knowledge of 1st edition but did you really played it to any extent worth more than a few campaings?

This whole trend is about 5e not being able to challenge high level characters. Yet, one side including me and many others are able to do it. Sometimes it might involve a "Gygaxian" style, sometimes it's an other way. We say that 5e can be a challenge but it takes some work, just as in any other editions made previously.

The other side say not only that it does not but that it can't. The other side also claim that it should be possible to challenge high level players right out of the box without work (that one part I agree with it. But it is not what we have. No game system so far did it like that).
 

Yeah, 1e could be pretty arbitrarily deadly. This monster bites you, you're dead, that monster looks at you, you're dead, this other monster touches you, you're dead, you touch the scarab, you die, you touch the corpse, a rot grub burrows into your heart, you listen at the door a different invertebrate burrows through your ear, you step into a room the floor tries to eat - or the ceiling does, or they fight over which one gets to eat you while the wall* paralyzes you.... Arbitrarily or randomly deadly isn't the same thing as 'challenging' exactly, but it certainly isn't any cake-walk. ;)

5e can err on the side of cake-walk, at times. It's a nod to the new or casual player who doesn't remember the glory days, I suppose. But it's not any harder to ratchet that up than it is to run a non-boring encounter in the first place. It's all just part of the Art of the DM.

That's how 5e comes through on it's goal of supporting many styles - it Empowers the DM to 'make the game his own' and adapt it to the style his group prefers.

If you've ever gotten the experience you like out of D&D in the past, you should be able to get a similar one out of 5e with a little effort on the DM's side of the screen. You shouldn't feel you have to give up and run to some other 'better' game just because some proprietary-feeling grognard claims D&D is 'not for you.'

(Of course, if you've never gotten anything you wanted out of D&D...)




















* OK, the stunjelly may be a tad obscure...
 
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I don't think I agree with this. Obviously our own experiences vary, but 1e was my preferred edition that we played from 1981 when I started all the way up to 2012. What you're claiming doesn't seem to be accurate to my experiences at all. About the only thing I agree with is that 9th level is considered "high level". But it still is very much viable above 10th level. The D series and Q module are all very deadly to PCs level 10-14.

For example, a 10th level PC still failed saving throws half the time or more. Extremely critical when you remember AD&D had save or die effects. A 15th level magic user for example needs an 11 or higher to make a poison save. How many things in 1e had poison? A lot. Every freaking where. And if you failed it was none of the mamby-pamby take a bit of damage and a penalty to your attacks. It was death. Instant.

Hit points were much lower as well. A 10th level fighter with a 16 CON is only going to have 70 or so hit points. A failed save against a 10 HD old or ancient dragon kills him instantly. It gets even more lethal at levels above 9 because you no longer roll for HP or get your CON bonus. A 15th level MU is only going to have around 30 hp. Even if he or he makes their save against dragon breath, it's death.

1e also had level draining monsters, and several at higher levels.

And 1e higher level monsters had very high magic resistance.

So yeah, I have to disagree with your position that high level AD&D was not viable, and especially disagree with your claim that by 10-12th level a competent party of players could handily defeat any published monster. I can't see how that is remotely possible unless you're playing a completely different game with different books than what I have. I'm not even talking about demon lords, I'm talking about "regular" monsters like a Balor, Vampire, dragon, chimera, beholder, t rex, ghost, banshee, giants, etc, etc. Even the lowly rot grubs can be deadly to a high level party. 1e, at any level, you had to be careful. Really careful. In virtually all ways, 1e was much tougher than any other edition after it, even in the teen levels.

Also, a marilith in 1e was 7+7 HD. That's not a CR8. That's about a CR4. CR =/= HD from older editions

I whole heartedly agree with you. Our friend must have had a really really different experience in 1st than what we had. He does have some good points here and there but the essence of his posts are somewhat biased in a negative way.

On the other hand the 1e marilith was much more dangerous than a CR4. She may not have high hp but her AC, roughly translated should be above the 20. In fact with the formula she would be AC 22 (the upper limit) which is quite high in this edition. (the formula is : 19 - AC with upper limit of 22, so the marilith should be 19- -7 = 26, lowered to 22) At 26 AC she would be quite hard to hit don't you agree?

Yep it come to think of it your are even more right than I first thought. It was indeed easier to challenge players in 1e than in 5e. It can be easily done in 5e. But it was easier in 1e.
 

I don't think I agree with this. Obviously our own experiences vary...

"Experiences vary", could perhaps be 1e AD&D's essential motto. That's in part because of the different rules different tables may have ignored, and in part because of the very different approaches tables could take to optimization, leveling speed and magic item access.

I encourage you to click on the link I gave earlier about the problems with challenging a high level party so that you are sure we are on the same page regarding glass cannons like dragons and so forth.

The second thing to consider is did you use Unearthed Arcana. It makes a big difference. You also should consider your groups approach to ability scores. Did you tend to play 4d6 drop 1, and tend to not prioritize having high ability scores? Or did players advocate for more power gaming methods to generate characters and churn characters until they got what they wanted? Did players attempt to assemble 'kits' of game breaking magic items, and did the abundance of placed treasure (as in modules or generous DMs building their own dungeons) facilitate that? How much attention did players pay to optimizing and breaking spell selection, and did you tend to play with round cycles that allowed for it (like not tracking rounds by segments)?

For example, a 10th level PC still failed saving throws half the time or more. Extremely critical when you remember AD&D had save or die effects. A 15th level magic user for example needs an 11 or higher to make a poison save. How many things in 1e had poison? A lot. Every freaking where. And if you failed it was none of the mamby-pamby take a bit of damage and a penalty to your attacks. It was death. Instant.

Text of "Slow Poison" reads: "When this spell is placed upon a poisoned individual it greatly slows the effects of any venom, even causing a supposedly dead individual to have life restored if it is cast upon the victim within a number of turns less than or equal to the level of experience of the cleric after the poisoning was suffered. i.e. a victim poisoned up to 10 turns previously could be temporarily saved by a 10th or higher level cleric who cast Slow Poison upon the victim. While this spell does not neutralize the venom, it does prevent it from substantially harming the individual for the duration of its magic, but each turn the poisoned creature will lose 1 hit point from the effect of the venom (although the victim will never go below 1 hit point while the Slow Poison spell's duration lasts). Thus, in the example above, the victim poisoned 10 turns previously has only 10 hit points, so when the 10th level cleric casts the spell, the victim remains with 1 hit point until the spell duration expires, and hopefully during that period a full cure can be accomplished. The material components of this spell are the cleric's holy/unholy symbol and a bud of garlic which must be crushed and smeared on the victim's bare feet."

I'm being snarky, but did you play 1e? If you did, why are you trying to scare me with how bad poison is like I'm a noob or something. By 11th level, poison isn't really a problem unless you let your cleric dies, and by 11th level why in the heck hasn't the wizard claimed the 'ring of protection' or other defensive device that improves saving throws? My 13th level Thief/11th level M-U didn't fail a save on worse than IIRC a 5, and had a periapt of proof against poison.

Hit points were much lower as well. A 10th level fighter with a 16 CON is only going to have 70 or so hit points.

Which is more than just about anything in the game.

A failed save against a 10 HD old or ancient dragon kills him instantly.

Discussion of that in the link I posted earlier which I'd appreciate you read since it would clarify perhaps how little you have to tell me about how AD&D works, although that said, since a fighter can use his magical armor and shield bonus against breath weapons I wouldn't expect that the save needs more than a 2-3 to save.

It gets even more lethal at levels above 9 because you no longer roll for HP or get your CON bonus.

Someone seems to think I haven't played 1e for decades, but in any event this is beside the point - monster levels only go up to X, and most of those can get crushed by a party of 6-8 high level characters in a round or two. With optimal equipment kits, most of them can be crushed by a single 12th level character in a round or two.

1e also had level draining monsters, and several at higher levels.

Again, see the link I linked to, although, by the time you get to high level, most of those will need nearly natural 20's to hit high level characters and most can be insta-killed by a cleric. Also, by the time you get to high level, you have the spell resources to recover from level drain. Level drain is far bigger a problem in the mid-levels.

And 1e higher level monsters had very high magic resistance.

Very few of them have spell resistance high enough to really thwart characters about 10th, and a good high level party a) generates by far most of its damage from its fighters anyway and b) has experienced players running the spell-casters that can by pass magic resistance by creatively using their spells. Indeed, it would be more appropriate to say that unless the monster had very high magic resistance, it was pretty pointless to put it up against a high level party. However, it's the fighters that were the real damage dealers.

So yeah, I have to disagree with your position that high level AD&D was not viable, and especially disagree with your claim that by 10-12th level a competent party of players could handily defeat any published monster.

I've seen 1st level parties at higher levels generating 200-300 damage per round. You weren't playing the same game we were. In your parties were no hammer of thunderbolts, no girdles of giant strength, no longbow specialization, no dart specialization, no holy avengers and your spellcasters weren't abusing illusion spells and so forth.

I can't see how that is remotely possible unless you're playing a completely different game with different books than what I have.

Unearthed Arcana? Makes a big difference.

Also, a marilith in 1e was 7+7 HD. That's not a CR8. That's about a CR4. CR =/= HD from older editions

Sorry. I no longer have the whole 1e MM memorized. I was going from memory. You are right, 8+8 was the balor now that I think about it. And if we define CR as the level at which it was a reasonable encounter, the Marilith was not a CR 4 monster. Of course CR is not equal to Hit Die. CR is more like monster level, and the Marilith most certainly was not monster level IV.
 


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