How viable is the max-CON fighter?

exile

First Post
I recently made up a human fighter who has max CON (20) with only a modest STR (14). It certainly seems that, especially with the addition of Martial Power, that there is a place for the high CON fighter, but is there really?

Obviously the above character will be less effective at hitting things, but will she be able to be an effective defender at all with only a 14 STR?

Chad
 

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i don't have much experience with fighters. but any character that i made with a primary stat less than 16 tended to become frustrating with the number of misses.

The extra con may give you bonus damage but if you're not hitting as often, then you're going to get less chance to get that bonus damage.

If it were me, rather than pumping the +2 human bonus in con, i'd put it in str (it'll let you hit a little more often for the loss of 2 extra hit points), making it con 18 str 16.

But a lot of it really depends on who will be fighting along side of you - if you're only worried about being a meat shield than go with the extra con since whether you hit or miss matters less.
 

You're likely to get frustrated from missing a lot, and possibly bored by it, but if there are a couple of strikers in the party to make up for your lower damage output you can still be effective as a defender. If you're a battlerager that's even more so.

I partially agree with fba827, though I'd move the numbers differently. The 7 points that took you from 16 to 18 base Con can take you from 14 to 16 Str with a little left over to go into Wisdom. +2 from human means you can still have an 18 Con, which is almost as good. The extra +1 to hit (+2 with OAs) will make you a better defender because the enemy won't be as inclined to ignore your combat challenge and combat mastery.
 

Don't worry about it.

A guy in my campaign made up his first character as a human fighter with 18 Con and 13 Str. Two handed Maul fighter. (standard array)

He is now 5th level and the player is having a lot of fun with him. He has been the most durable defender the party has (they've lost two paladins and two other fighters in the meantime).

His dailies are reliable so it doesn't hurt so much if he misses with them. He gets to mark someone whether he hits or not, which means he gets to do most of his basic defendery stuff with ease.

Cheers
 

Hammer Rhythm is what makes a high-con fighter work.

However, Hammer Rhythm cannot make up for the loss of damage you're taking by hitting a lot less often. 20 Con is too much. With powers that do high damage with con, you're doing the same amount of damage with 20 Str/14 Con as you do with it reversed.

However, had you instead went 18/18 by going Warforged, you'd end up with more over all damage from powers that reward Constitution, while only having 2 less hit points (drop in the bucket at levels > 1), and one less healing surge (if you're careful, you won't miss it)
 

i don't have much experience with fighters. but any character that i made with a primary stat less than 16 tended to become frustrating with the number of misses.

The extra con may give you bonus damage but if you're not hitting as often, then you're going to get less chance to get that bonus damage.

If it were me, rather than pumping the +2 human bonus in con, i'd put it in str (it'll let you hit a little more often for the loss of 2 extra hit points), making it con 18 str 16.

But a lot of it really depends on who will be fighting along side of you - if you're only worried about being a meat shield than go with the extra con since whether you hit or miss matters less.

No, save pts... instead of going 14 str and 18 con, putting +2 in str to get 16 str and 18 con (cost 21 pts) instead, put 16 str, 16 con, put the +2 on con, for 16 str 18 con (18 pts)
 

I play a "high Con Fighter". (A battlerager, of course.) .....And my highest stat is still Str. Str is that important.
 

Well let's look at this realistically. If you take a 14 STR, you're starting at +2 to hit. Thus you're going to want to get as much extra + to hit as possible. The Fighter Weapon Talent adds +1 to make it +3, and you'd most likely want to go with a +3 proficiency weapon, thus ending up with a +6 to hit at 1st level.

The question you now have to ask yourself is "what is more important to me, equal damage/defense footing, or overloading on the defensive side?" Because quite frankly... you could either go high CON for defense and then Great Weapon build to make up for the damage you lose for not having a bigger STR... or you could basically forsake damage for the most part and do the Guardian build for high AC on top of the high HP total. You are saying "I TRULY want to tank, and let the Strikers worry about knocking the enemy out." Because a 20 CON plus weapon & shield combo means it'll take a loooooooong time to knock you out of a fight.

For the sake of argument (and also because for my money makes the most sense), let's assume you are going as high defense as possible. This means the expectation is that you aren't going to massive amounts of damage, and thus what little focus you have on offense should be to make sure you do at least some damage.

Thus, first things first... one of your At-Wills should be Sure Strike. This is because it gives you an extra +2 to hit, for a grand total of +8. Yes, it only does 1[W] damage and no extra for STR... but those lost 2 damage points you might have gotten from a different at-will would do you no good if you are missing 10% more often because you're still trying to hit with a +6 rather than a +8. It's better to guarantee you get to do the base 1d8 or 1d10 (if we assume you go longsword or bastardsword for the +3 prof), than it is to worry about losing out on the extra 2 damage plus whatever little perk a different at-will would give you.

For your second at-will, you could go Brash Strike (from Martial Power) that would also give you the +8 to hit, would throw in the +2 damage for your STR score, but do both of this in exchange for granting combat advantage. But to be honest... effectively lowering your AC by 2 because of combat advantage (when you already have high AC and high HP) is probably not that big of a deal. If those two extra points of damage are important to you, you can use Brash Strike as needed.

Finally... your third at-will (if you stick with playing the human) will have to just deal with the fact you'll only be hitting with a +6 instead of a +8. Now to my mind... you'd want to select exploits that use your high CON score. And the ones that do that are the Invigorating exploits from Martial Power. Gaining 5 temp hp on any hit that is made by a power with the Invigorating keyword makes much more sense than selecting exploits that use your piddling STR score for their secondary effect (like Cleave and Reaping Strike do).

Wit those at-wills taken care of... your encounter and daily attack powers should usually try to follow the same pattern. Ones that either grant bonuses to hit (like Passing Attack, Villain's Menace or Shield Bash do), use your high CON in some fashion (like Knee Breaker does through the Invigorating keyword) or are Reliable (like Brute Strike, Comeback Strike or Lasting Threat) so it doesn't matter as much if you have a lower to hit since you can use the power again until you do.

You do that... and you'll at least hit somewhat often. And at the very least, hitting for only base weapon damage is still better than missing on higher potential damage exploits. Because after all, you're there to soak damage, not cause it.

Hope this helps.
 
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..... thus ending up with a +6 to hit at 1st level.
...well, if you're going with a high Con fighter, you'll be wanting the BattleRager class feature, rather than Weapon Talent. Make that a +5.

Moreover, the BattleRager fighter will want a hammer (+2 prof) and chain (lower AC). So he's probably got a +4 if he's going with the pathetic 14 Str.

1st level monsters have ACs that range from 13 - 17, with an average of 15. So a +4 will hit the average 50% of the time. That's not bad. ....But as you go up in level, their AC goes up faster than your attack bonus. So what's fine at 1st level (low Str) turns worse as you level.

I'd really recommend not gimping your fighter with a 14 Str. The pay-off for such a strategy seems weak.
 

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