How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

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I'm aware of that. If it's not in the player's control, then - assuming that some human participant in the game has control of it - it must be in the GM's control. Which is what @hawkeyefan, @Manbearcat and I have been saying. Manbearcat and I have also posted rulebook text, from two DMGs, that sets out the same idea.
Sometimes it is in the player's control though - when their PC sets the stakes of a situation. A PC, and thus a player, can absolutely do that in a classic or trad game - if the PC is in a position to set the stakes in that particular situation.
 

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I don't think I've said anything in this thread about how you run your game, and I know I've said nothing about how @Reynard runs his.

That said, your accounts of how you GM your games seem to me to be pretty consistent with what I saw going on in the AD&D 2nd ed era. To me it seems to involve a great deal - a very great deal - of GM control over play.
No. I do a number of things differently and have said so here many times.
 

Sometimes it is in the player's control though - when their PC sets the stakes of a situation. A PC, and thus a player, can absolutely do that in a classic or trad game - if the PC is in a position to set the stakes in that particular situation.
Can you provide an example?
 


I don't think I've said anything in this thread about how you run your game, and I know I've said nothing about how @Reynard runs his.

That said, your accounts of how you GM your games seem to me to be pretty consistent with what I saw going on in the AD&D 2nd ed era. To me it seems to involve a great deal - a very great deal - of GM control over play.
We aren't like role-playing like it's still 2e.
 

Yet you fairly confidently assert that your D&D play is more realistic than my BW play. So either your assertion is based in ignorance, or it is not an assertion about the content of the fiction. I've always assumed the latter: that by "realism" you don't mean the content of the fiction, but something about the manner in which it is produced - that is, the procedures for prep, for play, and for how those two things are related.

For instance, it seems to me - from your many posts - that you regard the first of the two episodes of play I set out immediately below as more realistic than the second:

* The GM draws up a map of a city square, and notes where there is a hiding place between the corners of two adjacent-but-not-quite-touching buildings. And the GM makes a note that, if a PC enters this square at night, there is a 30% chance that one of the ninjas who has been tracking the PCs - for reasons connected to stuff that has happened in an earlier session - will be hiding there, hoping to ambush the PC. Subsequently, when in play a player declares that their PC goes to the square, and everyone agrees that it is night time, the GM rolls the % dice, and they read 15 (and so fall within the 01 to 30 band to "trigger" the 30% chance). The GM therefore asks the player to make a Perception check, and - based on the result of that check - proceeds to resolve the ninja's attempted ambush of the PC.​
The GM prepares, inspired by events in a recent session, makes notes on a front - the front includes ninjas among its threats. The front has an impulse *to relentlessly pursue its targets, and as a GM-move to ambush someone. Subsequently, in play, a player declares that their PC goes to the city square. The GM describes it being night-time - the square is empty, the silence oppressive, the shadows threatening. The player says "I look around - if I need to get out of here, what's my best way out?" The GM applies the principle If you do it, you do it and so tells the player - "OK, you're reading the situation. Roll the dice!" The player rolls, and fails, and so - as per the rules of the game - the GM is entitled to make as hard and direct a move as they like. So the GM consults their prep, notes their front with its impulse and its move, and so tells the player, "You are looking around, trying to identify your possible way out, and then something strikes you in the neck. A dart!" And then they go on to resolve a ninja's attempted ambush of the PC.​

These two episodes of play don't differ in their fictional content. Nevertheless, as I said above, I am reasonably confident that you - @Micah Sweet - would regard the first as more realistic than the second. Given the lack of difference in content, this must be because of how they differ in their procedures.

Those difference can be spelled out fairly easily. The two episodes differ in the way the GM preps: the first is fairly typical for D&D, the second fairly typical for Apocalypse World or Dungeon World. They also differ in the way the GM approaches framing: in the first, the presentation of the city square by the GM is neutral, and the GM relies on the % dice to tell them whether or not a threat is present; in the second, the GM presents the square as sinister, thus instigating the player into action. They further differ in the way that action is resolved: in the first, the GM deploys the hidden element of the framing (the ninja they have rolled up, but not yet announced), and calls for a Perception check based on that deployment; in the second, the GM calls for a roll based on the player's declared action, and then draws on their prep to make a move that is appropriate to the result of that roll. This move includes introducing an ambushing ninja into the scene.

I personally don't find the label "realistic" a very helpful way of distinguishing the two approaches to prep and play. But it is at least pointing to a an actual difference, even if - in my view - misdescribing it. Unlike some of the other claims about "realism" in this thread.
I don't personally care for the second style (at all, really), but you're right that it isn't inherently less realistic than the first, even though it feels like it is. It does rub me the wrong way enough that I would be unable to focus on anything other than how I don't like the presentation though, which drowns out most other concerns.

To be honest, it's gotten to the point where I see the phrases "scene-framing" and "fronts" and I think to myself "Pemerton-stuff". I can't recall any RPG book I've ever read that talks about "scene-framing", but I've heard that phrase in particular from you constantly. I assume the games you favor talk about the concept a lot.
 

I think this understates the issue. He asserts that he cares about cause and effect of what the characters are involved with. But some of the things the characters are involved with include money, agents of local lords (eg guards, bailiffs, etc) and other things which directly implicate the social, political and economic structures of the setting. But those things aren't reasoned out by him in accordance with some working model of such matters: they are just made up, using as points of reference a handful of works that we are all reasonably familiar with (REH's Conan, JRRT's Middle Earth, perhaps a National Geographic special about some spectacular surviving castle).

This is why I deny that "reality" is the default. Some received tropes are the default.
This is actually one of the relatively few areas where I differ from @Lanefan : I do care about logistics, and things being historically accurate where such is practical and knowable. The fact that many D&D settings don't is something I see as a flaw to be corrected in my own game.
 


You do realize that @Reynard was talking in general there, not solely about Micah, right? All of us run games differently. We aren't clones who only run games in the way you like to slam them.
Besides, I did say "if not". I left off the "if so" part of the statement, but to be fair it's just as relevant, which I explained in a later post. Players can set the stakes - if their PCs are in a position in the setting to do so for that situation.
 

To be honest, it's gotten to the point where I see the phrases "scene-framing" and "fronts" and I think to myself "Pemerton-stuff". I can't recall any RPG book I've ever read that talks about "scene-framing", but I've heard that phrase in particular from you constantly. I assume the games you favor talk about the concept a lot.
I don't think it is talked about all that much. The Burning Wheel rulebook does talk about the GM have the power to begin and end scenes, and talks about how that power is to be exercised.

But I think it is a fairly useful analytical concept. For instance, the question Who gets to choose the scene? is a pretty important one for RPG play. Gygax writes his PHB advice on the assumption that the players mostly do (by choosing which dungeon doors to open), with the GM interpolating the occasional disruption to that via wandering monsters. Whereas the 2nd ed DMG assumes that the GM is choosing - overwhelmingly, if not exclusively - which scenes get framed. Likewise the 3E DMG, with its repeated references to "the adventure" that the GM has designed.

This difference between the Gygaxian approach and the 2nd ed AD&D/3E approach is a pretty significant one. It explains a lot about patterns in RPG play and preference, as well as smaller things like why there are so many detection items in Gygax's treasure lists. It also helps explain why it is hard to generalise dungeon exploration to other sorts of geography while preserving player agency, and likewise why it is hard to make dungeons more "realistic" while preserving player agency - because the agency depended upon the players (i) having the chance to learn what is behind a door without having to defeat it or even perhaps interact with it, and (ii) being able to "trigger" the scene by opening the door at a time of their choosing. Take away the dungeon doors, and the assumption hat monsters hang out behind them pretty much in "stasis - in other words, fast-forward play from c 1977 to c 1983 - and the whole dynamic changes pretty radically.

But it is fairly hard to describe this difference without talking about who gets to choose the scene.
 

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