How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

[prabe]

How would knowing an opponent's AC beforehand help you out? If you know the AC beforehand, you're still rolling a d20 and adding the appropriate modifiers to see if your character's attack is going to miss, be turned aside by your opponent's AC, or is going to successfully hit.

Telling the players the AC is the same thing as calling for a save and telling them the DC. It (at least in principle) speeds play a little, more than it "helps" them--they can just tell you if they hit or miss without telling you what they roll; they can just tell you whether they pass or fail the save without having to report a number. How much it speeds play will vary, of course.

 

[Reynard]

It’s untenable because just by taking part in the game and simple observation, the players will learn the rules. Or, many of them, at least.

Like the hidden AC. Forget that AC represents things that are mostly observable, so sharing it seems reasonable… after a few rolls in combat, it’s usually pretty obvious what a creature’s AC is. “Oh, I missed when I rolled a 14, but then Tom hit when he rolled a 15.” It doesn’t take a rules lawyer to figure that one out.

So why not just share it ahead of time?

That's not what I was responding to. You said not telling the players what the current hit points of the enemies is untenable. I am asking how, because I have never told them how many they have left (unless I'm gloating because they left it with 1 hp so it still gets a full round to attack).

 

[payn]

This is TTRPGs general so the knowing the AC answer really depends. In 3E/PF1 it will help the players decide if they need to flank, engage power attack, buff, etc.. In bounded accuracy of 5E it doesn't matter much. In PF2 what you really need to know is the level of the foe but AC will be known simply because of the <10> critical system. In Traveller, all AC is the same, but damage soak scores are what is important to know. Some weapons may be useless in situations and knowing that is helpful.

 

[billd91]

This is TTRPGs general so the knowing the AC answer really depends. In 3E/PF1 it will help the players decide if they need to flank, engage power attack, buff, etc.. In bounded accuracy of 5E it doesn't matter much. In PF2 what you really need to know is the level of the foe but AC will be known simply because of the <10> critical system. In Traveller, all AC is the same, but damage soak scores are what is important to know. Some weapons may be useless in situations and knowing that is helpful.

But does knowing the AC (or soak score) ahead of time negate the experience of finding out by experience what tactics/weapons to deploy? And is it valuable to do so, or have to that experience? It might be nice to be able to always approach a conflict with an optimal strategy in hand, but it's also nice to have to find those strategies myself or, at least, have that unknown quantity so that I start in a similar perspective as my PC - not knowing so much about how tough and dangerous this opponent is.

 

[hawkeyefan]

How would knowing an opponent's AC beforehand help you out? If you know the AC beforehand, you're still rolling a d20 and adding the appropriate modifiers to see if your character's attack is going to miss, be turned aside by your opponent's AC, or is going to successfully hit.

Knowing the odds may help you decide what to do. Maybe there are two opponents with different ACs. Maybe there’s something else you can do with a better chance to succeed compared to attacking an opponent with a high AC.

There could be many ways it helps. It allows the players to make truly informed decisions.

 

[Corinnguard]

Telling the players the AC is the same thing as calling for a save and telling them the DC.

True. Making an attack roll, a saving throw or surmounting a DC uses the same formula. A d20 plus the relevant ability score. However, the DM doesn't really need to tell you what the opponent's AC is since you will know what it is within a few combat rounds anyway.

 

[hawkeyefan]

That's not what I was responding to. You said not telling the players what the current hit points of the enemies is untenable. I am asking how, because I have never told them how many they have left (unless I'm gloating because they left it with 1 hp so it still gets a full round to attack).

I was using HP as an example of the overall idea. Players will learn the rules by observing, so keeping rules from them won’t last.

 

[payn]

But does knowing the AC (or soak score) ahead of time negate the experience of finding out by experience what tactics/weapons to deploy? And is it valuable to do so, or have to that experience? It might be nice to be able to always approach a conflict with an optimal strategy in hand, but it's also nice to have to find those strategies myself or, at least, have that unknown quantity so that I start in a similar perspective as my PC - not knowing so much about how tough and dangerous this opponent is.

In some instances, yes. For example if you encounter something that is higher in level than the party in PF2, there will be zero success chance. In Traveller, a PC might encounter an enemy in battledress which they may have no ability to damage. I know some folks think thats fine and dandy, but I dont enjoy watching the players get infant punched and TPK'd when their characters ought to have that info. In 3E/PF1 on the other hand, you have certain attacks and tactics that will be useful depending on the AC, yet the fight isn't out of reach. So, in those RPGs there is value in the hidden AC aspect. 5E has BA so its not a focus of the tactics of that game and thus isnt important to keep hidden. So, the answer is still depends, and not universal.

 

[prabe]

True. Making an attack roll, a saving throw or surmounting a DC uses the same formula. A d20 plus the relevant ability score. However, the DM doesn't really need to tell you what the opponent's AC is since you will know what it is within a few combat rounds anyway.

My point was that telling the player/s either is intended to be (and sometimes even is) a streamlining thing. There are other games--just about anything d100/roll-under, for instance--where the player will know whether they hit without the GM needing to tell them.

 

[Thomas Shey]

This is TTRPGs general so the knowing the AC answer really depends. In 3E/PF1 it will help the players decide if they need to flank, engage power attack, buff, etc.. In bounded accuracy of 5E it doesn't matter much. In PF2 what you really need to know is the level of the foe but AC will be known simply because of the <10> critical system. In Traveller, all AC is the same, but damage soak scores are what is important to know. Some weapons may be useless in situations and knowing that is helpful.

And of course in many modern and SF games, there's no particular logic in being coy about armor soak numbers; most of the time you're dealing with standard armors experienced combatants should have a pretty good idea how protective they are.