Agreed. Don't incorporate CW elements into state flags: use your Pre-War state flags or find a new design.
How was the civil war not about slavery?
- Thread starter Janx
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Agreed. Don't incorporate CW elements into state flags: use your Pre-War state flags or find a new design.
Thunderfoot
Hero
Nah, like I said, there are tons of folks in my area that also fly rebel flags... and that's the difference, you see the flag as a symbol of the confederacy (BTW the typical "Confederate flag" was actually one of about 6 flags used and the one that is most famous is actually the naval jack.) and those that fly it without racist intent see it as a symbol of the spirit of rebellion. One could make an argument that you are the one that is narrow minded in this situation (I'm not BTW, just using this as an example of spin and POV).
I find there are better things in life to worry about; most PC issues to me are a waste of time and proof that people have too much time on their hands. Otherwise, we would be working toward fixing real issues instead of perceived ones, but since this is starting to border on verbotten territory, I'll back off here.
Sounds to me like you came out the right side of the wrong tunnel. Glad to hear you made it through.
Part of history is that it is easy to apply modern concepts to historical events and judge them on their obvious faults. But, those obvious faults are rarely (if ever) obvious at the time history is being made.
Custer for example was:
(Then) Slaughtered by savages in an ambush while on patrol.
(Now) Avenged by Native Americans for the atrocities of Wounded Knee.
The events never changed but the perception did. It doesn't make the event right or wrong per se, just an event.
That's why history in the US is taught incorrectly in my opinion. History is about people and their stories, not dates and events. The events are merely vehicles and the dates are strictly time keeping devices. The people involved and the stories they convey, shaped by their thoughts are where the tapestries of history are truly woven.
Ask most people when the US was created and they will say July 4th 1776 - which is patently incorrect. The Declaration of Independence was signed on that day, but the battles for revolution were already underway, the continental Army was already established (June 14, 1775) and the post war government was created under The Articles of Confederation. (the first "constitution" of the US that wasn't worth the paper it was written on.)
The US as we know it wasn't founded until 1787 (the final draft of the Constitution), 1788 (the ratification of the Constitution (2/3 of the states signed)) or 1790 (Rhode Island - the 13th and final state to ratify the Constitution.) depending upon how you wish to spin it.
So I'll reiterate my earlier statement "any historical arguments are not black or white but subtle and numerous shades of gray."
My son is going to be 34 so it has been 26 years since the kidnapping and 19 since the issues of hos acting out. So for me it is far in the past. But looking back I did wonder if we were ever going to get through it.
Even if your teen is not acting out those years an be tough.
I had a history teacher in seventh grade instill the love of history in me. He didn't teach dates he taught why things happened and really got into the life styles and the culture of the people living in that time. He was not boring.
The thing about Custer that not so many people know is that he had pissed off several of the other Commanders and because of that they may not have moved as quickly as they could have to help him.
I audited an American History class back in 2004 for fun. The teacher just happened to be from Britain. And he brought up some interesting points of things from the British POV. Some of the younger students were absolutely outraged over this. They could not wrap their minds around the fact that in a war sometimes both sides are the good guys.
Thunderfoot
Hero
My oldest is 24 - so, I get it.
Yeah we had a history instructor in college that made us watch a tape where they interviewed German Nazis party supporters discussing pre-WWII (32-38) Germany and why following Hitler was so easy to do. They were broke, hungry, and demoralized and when Hitler took over, they suddenly had jobs, vehicles, food and sense of purpose. They didn't agree with his later tactics, but they never totally dropped a hammer on him either. It was really a wake up call for POV and reality.My oldest is 24 - so, I get it.
I saw something like that and it really made the Nazi's more human and really explained to me how someone like Hitler got into power. And it showed me why it happened and how what happened after WW1 help set up this situation.
People forget that history is our story and that it involved people very much like us in a lot of ways. But for some reason a lot of teachers have a hard time getting that across.
I saw something like this a few months ago. There was talk about opening the Everglades up for drilling and putting rigs off our west coast. I was so infuriated that the rest of the country felt they had the right to have a say on this when the consequences of it would be mainly effecting us Floridians.
It helped me have an appreciation for the southerns position pre civil war. People who were not going to be effected by a major change having a say in it. I can understand why it would upset people.
Would it be mostly accurate (meaning not true for everybody, but applicable to a majority) that a Northerner or black person seeing a Confederate flag on a truck, government building or house is going to make them think "a racist put that there" more often than not.
The person who put that flag there MIGHT not be racist. But they sure are ignorant if they don't think others might not come to that conclusion because real racists have adopted the symbol for their own.
Thunderfoot
Hero
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except all the other that have been tried." - Winston Churchill
Thunderfoot
Hero
No, I live in Illinois - a northern state, home to Grant, Sherman and John A Logan, all Union Generals and of course Lincoln and I've said multiple times there are more rebel flags around here than you can shake a stick at.
It really is a regional perception, I think. I wouldn't have ever thought a rebel flag in Maryland was anything but a racist symbol because the population at large was urban, of mixed races, and a largely economically prosperous group (even the poor folks make more than the rich folks around here on average), but here, it's so commonplace, a rural, mostly white and Hispanic racial mix and largely poor (in comparison to the national average) economic group , I would never associate it with racism, unless someone was spouting racist pap along with the display.
POV folks, it's all about POV.
I can't speak for Noetherners- those people are crazy, so I can't say how they think- but I know of only a handful of American blacks who are not immediately put on guard when they see that flag. Even among those who had ancestors who fought for the south, the CBF is rarely welcomed, rarely displayed.
There are exceptions: Black student hangs Confederate flag, sparks debate - New York Daily News
Thunderfoot
Hero
Yep, I remember that - that was a weird one.
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