How was the civil war not about slavery?

[Elf Witch]

It's very easy to say that the situation should have been handled peacefully and that the Civil War shouldn't have happened. That dodges the question of why the slave states would have wanted to participate in any scheme to abolish slavery, peaceful or otherwise. Slavery was their entire economy.

It's not like there weren't plenty of proposals at the time to deal with the problem. Lincoln himself was in favor of buying the slaves (it's up in the air if the federal government could have actually afforded this) and forcibly resettling them in Africa (ditto on the logistics here). But the fact is, any measure to end slavery would have required the cooperation of the slave states in Congress. And the slave-holding states did not want to end slavery. They had no economic reason to do so. Heck, they had every economic reason not to do so.

You cannot say this for certain because it didn't happen. For one thing more and more of the country was becoming anti slavery even in the south there were people speaking out against it. Also the plan to buy the slaves did not address the issue of replacing them as workers.

The end result of the civil war was a destroyed economy for the south that took well into the late 60 for it to start recovering from and a deep resentment towards those former slaves and the horrible Jim Crow laws.

Like I said if you look at how the end of slavery was handled in the Caribbean islands were it was phased out in steps you didn't see the issue we had here in America.

Just like in the alternative stories I have read where the south won the war have them having slavery today. Which makes little sense to me because it cost more money to feed, house and cloth a slave then it cost to buy a vacuum cleaner or to run a tractor.

Look at the fact that the huge servant population has disappeared except for the very wealthy.

 

[Jack7]

Please don't take this wrong way but you can't say for sure that being raised in that culture that you would hold the views you hold today.

I don't take it personally. But I am also certain of the type of person I am. I've been in situations where my morals were tested. Dangerous, even deadly situations.

I've never personally violated my own morals principles, even when it would have been much, much safer to do otherwise, situation be damned. My wife is black and when we got married it was illegal according to our state Constitution. Never bothered me at all to break that law, or any other I ever felt unjust. I have never feared any kind of opposition, and I don't need the comfort of the culture backing me up either. I don't care in either direction.

That's the way I am. I've never feared the crowd or the opinion of the general public, or the culture. I am culturally amoral when it comes to my personal behavior and honor and morals. I am neither afraid of dying for a cause, nor killing for one.

But no, I don't take that kinda thing personally.

Let me rephrase it this way. If I had been born a very different man in the Civil War era then I might have been different. That's certainly true.

If I were born then the same kind of man I am now, then it wouldn't have made any difference to me at all. Never really know of course, but if you took me and put me in a different era, the era wouldn't have made any real difference to my morals.

I'm sure it would have made a difference as to my particular actions, but not to my outlook or overall behavior. I've simply never cared what other people thought if I thought them wrong.

And no other person's behavior, or group of people's behavior, regardless of the situation, has ever forced me to do anything I wouldn't have done, or not done, anyway. I simply don't care much for other people's opinions if they conflict with my morals, nor do I fear other people's opinions, or the opinions of the general culture.

As a little aside most of my grandparents didn't much care for interracial marriages either. Not at first anyways. Neither did my pastor or church. Or some of my friends. Or her family and friends. I told them all they could accept it or not, that was their choice. Wouldn't change my mind.

In time they all became great friends and family members with my wife. My mother's mother came to adore my wife and kids. But it didn't bother me at all that they didn't like it at first, and I told them so. That's life.

Sometimes the bear gets you, and sometimes you get the bear. But if you won't stick to your guns, come hell or highwater, you never get the bear.

Bears don't scare me and not much else does either.

But again, don't think I'm being a smartass. I didn't take it personally in any way. Just not in my nature to care much what others think. Or what my culture thinks for that matter.

 

[Elf Witch]

Who said that? I've never heard anyone claim that. Ever.



You would be, because they took up arms to preserve their right to keep slaves. That's wrong. Not really a debate there is there?




You COULD, but why would you? He was fighting to preserve slavery. Just cause he didn't have shoes doesn't make it a noble thing.

Just cause someone's family doesn't make it your life mission to admire what they did. (not YOU personally, I'm just talking in a general sense)

If my great grandfather fought for slavery, I'd be ashamed of what he did, whether he had shoes, socks, ammo or a can opener. It wouldn't matter if he was my grandfather.

Well then you have never hung around on many history sites and discussed the civil war.

They took up arms to preserve their way of life to protect their economy. My great grandfather's family owned a dry goods store they did not keep slaves because it was not cost efficient for them. It was cheaper to put their families to work in the store than to keep slaves who had to be feed and clothed.

I admire him because of everything he accomplished in his life both during the war and after.

Are you ashamed that the Deceleration of Independence was written by a slave owner and the first president of the United States was a slave owner? Do you think we should take down any monument to George Washington because he is someone we should be ashamed of?

I was taught by my history professor that if you truly want to understand why something happened you have to look at without your modern day morality coloring the facts. So many people don't really have any kind of understanding of what was happening politically at the time of the Civil War all they can see is slavery bad.

So they truly don't understand why the war happened.

Slavery is an emotional issue but here is the sad truth and that is almost every culture has had some form of slavery. Back in the Victorian times the poor houses were a form of legalized slavery. Whole families were sentenced to them and forced to work for pennies in dangerous conditions.

After the civil war the same men who had said slavery was wrong became railroad barons and hired cheap labor in the form of Chinese workers they were kept in deplorable conditions and were often killed or beaten to death.

Military scholars often write papers on Robert E Lee because he was a brilliant tactician I have read his journals and the anguish he felt over taking arms against men he had admired and trained with.

It is much more simpler I guess to paint everyone in the south as evil bad men because they owned slaves and fought for the right not be told what to do by the majority whose economy would not have been effected by this.

I have a question if you had family who served with Custer would you be ashamed? Even knowing some of the horrible abuses of innocent life that the US Army did in breaking the will of the plains Indians?

Are you ashamed that your own country just 50 years ago put your fellow country men in interment camps just because they were of Japanese ancestry?

The point I making here is that it easy to throw around words like shame when talking about our history. History is not like DnD filled with clear cut alignments it is made up of human beings who at times could be flawed but who were very much a product of their times.

As a human race we have grown but we still have much growth ahead of us I wouldn't be surprise if 200 years from now most people look back at us as a bunch of barbarians.

I am only ashamed for my actions.

 

[Oryan77]

The Civil War was about slavery, but that is not what the war was fought over. Like usual, it was fought over money and power.

The thing people tend to do these days is relate "slavery" to "racism". People of the same race often enslave their own kind and that does not make them "racist". So in school, students are taught that slavery is of course bad, but it's implied that the southern states are "racist" while the northern states were not. So when you get into any kind of political debate, people ridicule the confederates as "the bad guys". It was a different time with different ways of thinking. There were no bad guys.

What really irks me is how people nowadays see a confederate flag as a symbol of racism. It is not. It's a symbol of the south and nothing more.

What the schools don't seem to explain to students is that yes, the Civil War was about slavery, but it was not an attempt to simply free them out of compassion. The Union was not trying to free slaves like knights on shining armor looking to help the black man. Northerners still did not see blacks as equals and they definitely were not simply going off to die so blacks would be free.

The war was fought over the fact that the northern farmers who paid their laborers had a harder time competing with southern farmers who owned slaves and did not pay them. They wanted to level the playing field, which meant they wanted southern farmers to pay for labor. That meant, ending slavery. So Northerners were going off to die for profit and power.

Regardless of what you see in movies, slaves were not all treated poorly by their owners. Many slaves stuck around and were hired on as paid laborers. The sad fact is most were seen as property, but that doesn't mean the "property" was not taken care of. If farmers were treating slaves poorly, then they can't work as good and if they are sick or dead, it costs the farmer more money to treat or get a new slave.

I'm not trying to downplay slavery or defend it. I'm just pointing out that people get caught up in what they see in film and our text books glorify our kindness to hide our greediness. What would you rather tell school children; that we ended slavery cause we are so compassionate, or that we ended slavery so we could make more money? So our textbooks gloss over the money issue.

Of course, there was still more to the war than this. But this was the gist of it if you want to look at the slavery issue.

 

[Elf Witch]

I don't take it personally. But I am also certain of the type of person I am. I've been in situations where my morals were tested. Dangerous, even deadly situations.

I've never personally violated my own morals principles, even when it would have been much, much safer to do otherwise, situation be damned. My wife is black and when we got married it was illegal according to our state Constitution. Never bothered me at all to break that law, or any other I ever felt unjust. I have never feared any kind of opposition, and I don't need the comfort of the culture backing me up either. I don't care in either direction.

That's the way I am. I've never feared the crowd or the opinion of the general public, or the culture. I am culturally amoral when it comes to my personal behavior and honor and morals. I am neither afraid of dying for a cause, nor killing for one.

But no, I don't take that kinda thing personally.

Let me rephrase it this way. If I had been born a very different man in the Civil War era then I might have been different. That's certainly true.

If I were born then the same kind of man I am now, then it wouldn't have made any difference to me at all. Never really know of course, but if you took me and put me in a different era, the era wouldn't have made any real difference to my morals.

I'm sure it would have made a difference as to my particular actions, but not to my outlook or overall behavior. I've simply never cared what other people thought if I thought them wrong.

And no other person's behavior, or group of people's behavior, regardless of the situation, has ever forced me to do anything I wouldn't have done, or not done, anyway. I simply don't care much for other people's opinions if they conflict with my morals, nor do I fear other people's opinions, or the opinions of the general culture.

As a little aside most of my grandparents didn't much care for interracial marriages either. Not at first anyways. Neither did my pastor or church. Or some of my friends. Or her family and friends. I told them all they could accept it or not, that was their choice. Wouldn't change my mind.

In time they all became great friends and family members with my wife. My mother's mother came to adore my wife and kids. But it didn't bother me at all that they didn't like it at first, and I told them so. That's life.

Sometimes the bear gets you, and sometimes you get the bear. But if you won't stick to your guns, come hell or highwater, you never get the bear.

Bears don't scare me and not much else does either.

But again, don't think I'm being a smartass. I didn't take it personally in any way. Just not in my nature to care much what others think. Or what my culture thinks for that matter.

I understand what you are saying. I don't think you are a smartass. I often wonder how I being raised by one parent who was quite type racist and one who actually has members of the Klan who are proud of the fact that they hung those uppity blacks how I turned out to be the open minded person I am today.

I remember one of the worst spankings I ever got was because at a family dinner after listening to my Uncle JG going on and on about how all blacks should be shipped back to Africa of course he didn't use the word black. I innocently asked why, it wasn't like they asked to come here they were ripped away from their families in Africa. I was around seven. My mother gave me the belt for being a smart ass. I was truly confused.

Most of my family is rather racist today to different degrees. So why am I not that way it was the environment I was raised in. This may sound silly but I think a lot has to do with the fact that I grew up in South Florida while the rest of my family was in Georgia and South Carolina and I was friends with Cubans and Jews. The silly part is that I think growing up being addicted to Star Trek with its message of equality had a lot to do with the person I became.

I was adopted I sometimes wonder if I had been raised in Aiken South Carolina would I be the the person I am today.

So looking back to the south of 1860 most of those Southerners had never traveled there was no television or radio only books and papers the majority of them only knew their culture and in their culture slavery was legal. They heard it in their churches that god said slavery was okay. It is very hard to overcome what you are taught.

One thing about me is that even as a child I hated any kind of injustice I have always had a strong sense of fairness. Maybe I have gene for that and it is hard wired in me.

How much of what we become is environment VS genetics is something we are still unsure about.

So maybe you are right it is hard wired into you to be the way you are and you would have been then same growing up in the mid 1800s.

It is an interesting thing to ponder at least I think so.

 

[Relique du Madde]

The end result of the civil war was a destroyed economy for the south that took well into the late 60 for it to start recovering from and a deep resentment towards those former slaves and the horrible Jim Crow laws.

The irony of the civil war was that if Andrew Johnson, Lincoln's successor, was one of the reasons why the Jim Crow Laws were innacted since he backed off on his anti-successionist stances and turned a blind eye to the plight of the freedmen.

So yeah, even though the abolitionist won, they then decided to high five each other on the backs of the former slaves and plan to attack the next social issue rather then dealing with the fallout over their actions.

 

[Elf Witch]

The irony of the civil war was that if Andrew Johnson, Lincoln's successor, was one of the reasons why the Jim Crow Laws were innacted since he backed off on his anti-successionist stances and turned a blind eye to the plight of the freedmen.

So yeah, even though the abolitionist won, they then decided to high five each other on the backs of the former slaves.

Well he had to he was in danger of being impeached. He was not a strong leader like Lincoln.

 

[Starman]

What really irks me is how people nowadays see a confederate flag as a symbol of racism. It is not. It's a symbol of the south and nothing more.

Ta-Nehisi Coates has written on the Confederate flag, too.

My sense of the question is fairly simple--knowing the history of the Confederate flag, knowing that it was created, specifically, to symbolize a nation founded on the precepts of white supremacy and "African slavery," knowing that the pursuit of the Confederate cause ended with the murder of Abraham Lincoln, knowing that after the Civil War, the flag morphed from battle standard of white supremacy, to battle standard of white terrorism, were I white, it's very hard for me to imagine a situation in which I'd want to fly the flag.
...
Formulating the question as "Is Lynyrd Skynyrd racist?" or "Are people who fly the Confederate flag racist?" or "Can you fly the flag and be progressive?" misses the point. The better question is posed to the young man, or woman, who would fly the flag today. Simply put, it's "How well do you know the history of the symbols you claim?" It really is that simple. It's not "Are you a racist?" it's "Are you conscious?"

 

[Elf Witch]

Ta-Nehisi Coates has written on the Confederate flag, too.

I have read a lot of his work and I think he is a little biased in his outlook.

I own a confederate battle flag it was brought home by my great grandfather from the war. When he died my grandmother inherited it and when she died my dad was given it.

My dad left it and a few other Confederate memorabilia to me because of my interest in history.

For some Southerners yes it is symbol of white supremacy for others it is part of our history and not a symbol of racism. The Klan has used the symbol of the cross to terrorize blacks but should we accuse anyone who wears a cross for religious purposes of being a racist.

For a lot of young people the 'rebel' flag represented rebellion against the man. Southern bands like Lynard Skynner and the Allman Brothers were more about being rebels and the flag represented that to them because they didn't like was what going on in Washington at that time.

It infuriates me when they want to take the flag down that flies at the Confederate museum or over the the fallen soldiers in Confederate grave yards they fought and died under that flag.

I don't think the flag should be flown at state capitals it is not appropriate but not because of racism but because it represents sedition against the US.

 

[Starman]

I have read a lot of his work and I think he is a little biased in his outlook.

Biased? How?

I own a confederate battle flag it was brought home by my great grandfather from the war. When he died my grandmother inherited it and when she died my dad was given it.

My dad left it and a few other Confederate memorabilia to me because of my interest in history.

For some Southerners yes it is symbol of white supremacy for others it is part of our history and not a symbol of racism. The Klan has used the symbol of the cross to terrorize blacks but should we accuse anyone who wears a cross for religious purposes of being a racist.

For a lot of young people the 'rebel' flag represented rebellion against the man. Southern bands like Lynard Skynner and the Allman Brothers were more about being rebels and the flag represented that to them because they didn't like was what going on in Washington at that time.

It infuriates me when they want to take the flag down that flies at the Confederate museum or over the the fallen soldiers in Confederate grave yards they fought and died under that flag.

Fought and died under a flag that was flown in representation of a group of people that desperately wanted to promote the cause of slavery. And many groups after the Civil War used it as a symbol of that. Yeah, that doesn't mean everyone that wants to fly the flag is a racist, but why would you be proud of a symbol used to promote it?

I don't think the flag should be flown at state capitals it is not appropriate but not because of racism but because it represents sedition against the US.

The sedition was primarily for the cause of slavery.

I'm really trying not to Godwin the thread, but symbols have power and other movements have used symbols that have taken on a certain meaning and I don't think that most people would take to kindly to people using that symbol for something and saying, "Oh, but I'm not like those other people that used this symbol."