How was the civil war not about slavery?

[Oryan77]

knowing the history of the Confederate flag, knowing that it was created, specifically, to symbolize a nation founded on the precepts of white supremacy and "African slavery,"

Again, he's mistaking the south as being "racist" simply for owning slaves. Then he is relating racism with the flag that the south flew.

I don't understand why people like to believe the north was not racist just because they didn't own slaves. Blacks were not treated equally in the north. You can be racist without owning slaves. You can own slaves without being racist. If a person is unable to distinguish one from the other, then yes, he's going to label a confederate flag as a symbol of racism. Unfortunately, white supremacy groups can't distinguish one from the other. That still doesn't mean the flag was created to symbolize racism. Otherwise, every flag in the world would be a symbol of racism.

Think of it this way, calling the south racist for not wanting to give up their slaves is like calling any farmer today racist for not wanting to give up their tractors. Liking or disliking blacks had nothing to do with their reasons for wanting to own slaves. Liking or disliking blacks had nothing to do with the Union wanting to end slavery. Like I said, white Union soldiers were not going to war because they cared so much for black people. Our governments are not that compassionate.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

On Southerners of the era: as a black dude from Louisiana living in Texas, I think I can safely say that there were people back then who were not racist yet who fought for the Confederates. However, beyond a personal display within one's home in honor of such service, I really can't get behind displaying the Stars & Bars. I honestly think the Germans had the right idea of outlawing public display of the symbolism of Nazi Germany, though such laws would not be legal here in the USA.

On Northerners of the era: people forget that Lincoln was no real fan of black people himself- his primary interest was the USA as an ongoing concern, and he recognized the moral bankruptcy of "that Southern institution." He had originally proposed to buy all the slaves in the South and send them to Africa (basically to Liberia), reasoning- rightly- that it would be cheaper than war.

 

[Starman]

Again, he's mistaking the south as being "racist" simply for owning slaves. Then he is relating racism with the flag that the south flew.

I don't understand why people like to believe the north was not racist just because they didn't own slaves. Blacks were not treated equally in the north. You can be racist without owning slaves. You can own slaves without being racist. If a person is unable to distinguish one from the other, then yes, he's going to label a confederate flag as a symbol of racism. Unfortunately, white supremacy groups can't distinguish one from the other. That still doesn't mean the flag was created to symbolize racism. Otherwise, every flag in the world would be a symbol of racism.

Think of it this way, calling the south racist for not wanting to give up their slaves is like calling any farmer today racist for not wanting to give up their tractors. Liking or disliking blacks had nothing to do with their reasons for wanting to own slaves. Liking or disliking blacks had nothing to do with the Union wanting to end slavery. Like I said, white Union soldiers were not going to war because they cared so much for black people. Our governments are not that compassionate.

I don't think anyone (here on this thread or in links) has said that you have to own slaves to be racist or that there was no racism in the North. It also seems rather disingenuous (and telling) that you make an analogy comparing people to tools. If you consider a person nothing more than a tool (which was a good chunk of Southern land-holders) than, of course, you're going to treat them as such. "Look, I like my tools and all and would rather someone didn't come take them away from me." That's understandable. But if you substitute "people" for "tools" you've got a slightly different situation on your hands. And, I will damn sure call anyone a racist who keeps slaves and gets upset when someone wants to free the slaves.

 

[Starman]

On Northerners of the era: people forget that Lincoln was no real fan of black people himself- his primary interest was the USA as an ongoing concern, and he recognized the moral bankruptcy of "that Southern institution." He had originally proposed to buy all the slaves in the South and send them to Africa (basically to Liberia), reasoning- rightly- that it would be cheaper than war.

Right. I'm not going to make the ludicrous argument that all of the Northerners were bastions of moral virtue. That doesn't change the fact that the Confederate Flag has come to represent something, something that isn't very good at all. Maybe that's a tragedy or something, but that's the way it is.

 

[Dire Bare]

I'm really trying not to Godwin the thread, but symbols have power and other movements have used symbols that have taken on a certain meaning and I don't think that most people would take to kindly to people using that symbol for something and saying, "Oh, but I'm not like those other people that used this symbol."

You may not be trying to Godwin the thread, but you are approaching it.

You have to understand that, yes, symbols are powerful, but they do not mean the same thing to all people. Elf Witch's point about the Christian Cross is an excellent one. Some people find the cross a symbol of oppression against non-Christians, others see in it their own racist views, and others see it as a symbol of peace and love. It is a very powerful symbol that represents different things to different people. True, the majority of folks see the cross as a good symbol . . . but are we a culture founded on majority rule with minority rights? Should we ban the cross because some are truly and rightfully offended by it?

Likewise, the Confederate Flag is seen by many (perhaps a majority) as a symbol of racism. But to others, especially those of the South, it is not a racist symbol at all, but one of rebellion against unjust authority. Who are you to say that those who fly the Confederate Flag are racists, even if they don't realize it themselves? Should we ban or denigrate those who proudly see this symbol as a positive thing?

Personally, the Confederate Flag makes me feel ooky. I would never display it, and anyone I met who proudly did would probably not make it on my "friends list". But I wouldn't assume they were wrong, or racist, to venerate that symbol.

 

[Oryan77]

But if you substitute "people" for "tools" you've got a slightly different situation on your hands.

Slaves were not considered "people" during that era. "People" had rights, slaves did not. And I'm not just saying that to make a point. Slaves really were not legally identified as a "person". So yes, they were tools. And yes, I agree, when you substitute people for tools it does change things. But that isn't what the Civil War was about.

And, I will damn sure call anyone a racist who keeps slaves and gets upset when someone wants to free the slaves.

So would any other compassionate person alive today. The reason you might think like that is because slavery is illegal today. Who knows what we'd think if it wasn't (we'd like to believe we would still think the same). Someone else said it earlier in this thread; to understand what the war was about, you have to think past our modern day thinking and put yourself in that time period. People thought much differently then.

 

[Starman]

Slaves were not considered "people" during that era. "People" had rights, slaves did not. And I'm not just saying that to make a point. Slaves really were not legally identified as a "person". So yes, they were tools. And yes, I agree, when you substitute people for tools it does change things. But that isn't what the Civil War was about.

They were 3/5 of a person.

So would any other compassionate person alive today. The reason you might think like that is because slavery is illegal today. Who knows what we'd think if it wasn't (we'd like to believe we would still think the same). Someone else said it earlier in this thread; to understand what the war was about, you have to think past our modern day thinking and put yourself in that time period. People thought much differently then.

How does that excuse people flying the Confederate flag today?

 

[Relique du Madde]

The original Confederate flag ("Stars and Bars") was a 5 star version of this flag (note more stars = more confederate states):

The flag was changed to incorporate the Confederate battle standard because of one reason: "Bull Run was confusing... every flag looked the same!"

Unfortunately, too many people thought the flag was a sign of surrender ("White flags = truce!) so they added red to it because the south was not going to capitulate, they were out for blood.

Let's look at the battle standard on that flag...

The red on the flag wasn't because "they were a nation that was built on the blood of the slaves." It was because Red = Strength. It symbolized currage, blood, aggression. You know they things you want to have your army think about as they slaughter the enemy. Blue represented loyalty and some other virtues that were also used on the Union Flag. So basically yeah, they used the same ideas that went into making the union flag.

The idea of using a blue cross on the flag was based on several flags. Like South Carolina's Succession flag, and Alabama's flag...

It should be noted that originally the design of the rebel battle standard was going to be a Saint George cross based design akin to that South Caroline flag. Unfortunately, or fortunately, a prominent southern jew told the designer that would be offensive to Jews, and no southern jew in their right mind would march to war under a cross banner (you know, because of the crusades). However, since the Saint Andrew's cross looked like an "X" they figured it was alright.

(Some say it was an also meant as insult to the union because it was reminiscent of the flags flown by the English, but let's not go there. )[sblock=I went there]

Note, the reversed colors!
[/sblock]

 

[Oryan77]

Personally, the Confederate Flag makes me feel ooky. I would never display it, and anyone I met who proudly did would probably not make it on my "friends list". But I wouldn't assume they were wrong, or racist, to venerate that symbol.

Judging a guy cause he has an "ooky" flag hanging up is no different than saying you wouldn't be friends with a guy that has a D&D poster on his wall because it represents devil worshiping.

My entire family is from the south and I'm very proud of it. I'm white and I'm married to an Afghan woman. I converted to Islam to marry her. We live in the San Fransisco Bay Area surrounded by all kinds of races. My wife is proud of the fact that I'm from the south. She bought a confederate flag when we were in TN visiting family. Out of respect to others (because most people are just misinformed and easily influenced into thinking it represents something that it doesn't) we hang it in our bedroom rather than outside or in the family room.

I'd like to think I'm not a racist and I'd be pissed if someone accused me to be.

 

[Oryan77]

They were 3/5 of a person.

Which means they were not a person.

How does that excuse people flying the Confederate flag today?

Well I've already explained it in length. If you are so set on wanting to make it a racist symbol, then I can't stop you. But it's not a racist symbol, regardless of what misinformed people use it for or because you saw a skinhead waving it around. The confederates were not fighting their own brothers in the Civil War because they hated black people. The war was not fought to preserve the right to be racists.