How we Speed up our Encounters -- what about you?

[weem]

So just to clarify:

1. DM rolls for the monster with the highest initiative vs. the individual initiatives of all the PCs.
2. PCs who roll above the monster go first in any order (essentially getting a surprise round for reacting so quickly.
3. Then all the monsters go, in any order.
4. Then all the PCs go (including the ones who already acted) in any order.
5. Repeat 3 and 4 until the end of the combat.

Yes, though as far as #1 that is how I do it, you could do it that way or you could do it however you feel like it (maybe roll once for each creature type and choose the highest, or lowest, etc etc). I prefer just rolling once, so my roll is based on the creature with the highest.

I really like this. It saves so much time rolling for each monster (or group of similar monsters), writing everything down, remembering whose turn it is, etc. Also the freedom of being able to act in any order, either as the PCs, or as the monsters, makes the ability to pull off power combos requiring multiple characters that much easier. It seems like it would add both speed and excitement to combat.

Exactly!

This is one of those "AHA!" moments where I feel like smacking myself on the forehead for not doing this years ago.

It was for me as well when I read the discussion

One question, though. For powers that last until the end of your next turn, how do you prevent PCs from gaming the system?

Yea I thought about that as well, but I wasn't too concerned. I figured if it was being abused I would say something and really it hasn't - the players mentioned (when I told them of this method) how they could work it like that and I said, well, don't. It has never been an issue.

The DM in one of the games I play in uses this method as well - but he said up front effectively, "Don't abuse this". And basically he said if a situation came up where a monster were to be hit with an effect twice due to 'gaming the system' etc he would rule that no, the effect is not still around, it ended, etc - basically the PC's can still go whenever they like, but their effects can not be artificially dragged out like that.

 

[amysrevenge]

Yea I thought about that as well, but I wasn't too concerned. I figured if it was being abused I would say something and really it hasn't - the players mentioned (when I told them of this method) how they could work it like that and I said, well, don't. It has never been an issue.

I can think of a way to deal with it, but it's just complex enough that it defeats the purpose.

(The way would be to keep track of the position in which the effect was applied - ie. PC #2 applied the effect, so it ends on the next round on the turn of PC #2, even if it is a different PC who goes second. Even here you can still get abuse without cooperation from the players, as the melee strikers might get two shots at the stunned bad guy, for instance.)

 

[weem]

I can think of a way to deal with it, but it's just complex enough that it defeats the purpose.

(The way would be to keep track of the position in which the effect was applied - ie. PC #2 applied the effect, so it ends on the next round on the turn of PC #2, even if it is a different PC who goes second. Even here you can still get abuse without cooperation from the players, as the melee strikers might get two shots at the stunned bad guy, for instance.)

The DM I mentioned above actually talked about doing this as well (I just didn't go into detail), but as you said, it's complex and requires more tracking than anyone wants to do. I think if you have mature players, there's no issue.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

We do not go with a time limit - instead, we use a different initiative method (there was a name for it somewhere, but I forgot). Basically PC's roll to beat creatures. Those who beat them go (if any do) then the creatures go (all of them) then back to ALL PC's including those who got to go before the creatures and we then repeat from here, Creatures > PC's > Creatures > PC's etc.

I have seen this method called the "ars ludi" method, apparently from this blog post: Initiative: The Silent Killer.

 

[weem]

I have seen this method called the "ars ludi" method

Yes! That's it - I mentioned that this was from another thread and there was a name for it, I just forgot, but that's the one It was linked to from here (ENW) a while back and discussed. I think I even had some of the same questions that were asked above at the time, hehe.

 

[Wimwick]

I'm not a big fan of #1. 30 seconds seems a bit tight. I can't count the amount of times I knew exactly what action my PC was going to take only to have those decisions rendered useless by the actions of the DM or another PC acting before me. Though I do like a time limit I'd prefer to see 60 - 90 seconds for the complete turn.

#2 is a must. Having the math doen ahead of time just makes sense. The Character Builder is a great way to go as it lists you to hit and damage numbers along with the additional conditions of the power.

#3 very useful. 4e has a lot, perhaps too many conditions especially at epic level. It's helpful to have some way to remember everything.

Over at Dungeon's Master we have an article on Speeding Up Your Game. Check it out.

 

[Jhaelen]

Great thread!

This is not the first thread about this topic but it's a nice summary of all the good advice I've seen before (and partially forgotten, already...).

I'm especially intrigued about the alternative initiative system. Since I'm still playing 3E, do you think it will have similar, more, or less potential issues than in 4E?

Since there are fewer 'powers' that last until 'end of next turn', I'm inclined to think it might be less problematic in 3E.

 

[hailstop]

I have seen this method called the "ars ludi" method, apparently from this blog post: Initiative: The Silent Killer.

We gave this a shot last night. It did take the players a bit of time to understand why once the players who beat the monsters went, then the monsters went, it didn't matter what order the players went after that.

Also, we occasionally had cases where no-one was jumping at going first.

That said, there was only one group of monsters (3 stone golems), so the difference between the ars lundi method and the normal one wasn't as obvious.

 

[weem]

We gave this a shot last night --snip-- Also, we occasionally had cases where no-one was jumping at going first.

It won't take long (in my experience) - my players as well as the players in the other games I play in jump right in there - usually some people try to go at the same time and one ends up saying, "go ahead, i'll go after you" etc.

I would really like to have those of you who are about to try it out for the first time come back and let us know how it went for you. I can tell you all day about how great it has been for us over many many games, but I'm curious about you

 

[Zaruthustran]

I have to admit I'm skeptical of the "one whole side goes, then the other whole side goes". With no opportunities for healing or retreating in response to attacks, it seems like it'd be way too easy to focus fire and kill single targets. There's no opportunity for clutch rescues, or reacting to an advance before it fully unfolds, and so on.

Part of the fun of D&D combat, and 4E in particular, is a battlefield with many actors (at least as many monsters as PCs). Grouping the two sides into two initiatives, IMO, removes some of the excitement of larger-scale combat.

That said: I'm going to try grouping my players into three two-man fireteams.

Also: I can vouch for the On Deck technique. It works.