D&D (2024) How would you change skills in 5.5e

DEFCON 1

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But that's RAW
What is the RAW DC for bending a bar? Is there one? And if there is, what metal is it? And then if we change the metal of the bar, what's the new DC then? Is that written down? And then once we write down the DCs for all the different metals used in bars, what's the RAW for how thick the metal bars are? Or the RAW for quality of the metal, like how rusted is it? Or what about how long the metal bar is, what the RAW for bending a 2' bar versus a 10' bar? All of these things would need to be determined to create a "RAW DC" of bending this bar if "playing RAW" was so important.

Do you do that? Do you have those kind of details in your game so that you can "play RAW"? If you do... well, good for you. Feel free to do that at your table. But now if you are expecting the D&D DMG to have all those possible adjustments listed in the game going forward... I suspect you will be disappointed-- because it is unnecessary when you can use the true RAW of 5E... which is "Rulings, Not Rules". The DM need a DC for a 7' long, rusted, bronze bar a 1/2 thick? They just make it up. Whatever DC sounds good. You don't need "RAW"... you just need a little improvisation and common sense. Which most DMs can do.

But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, because no matter how long a DC chart or how short a chart or what words they use to define the different DCs, or how high the numbers on the DC chart go to... every DM is going to just use whatever system them want anyway. I know I will. And if WotC decides for whatever reason to actually create the system you think it needs... then good news for you. Congratulations, you got what you wanted. But it's probably not going to matter for the rest of us because we'll just end up doing what we always do and use whatever houserule decisions and systems we prefer regardless of what WotC prints.

Just like you might have to do should WotC NOT produce the system you want for 2024E.
 
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tetrasodium

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Epic
What is the RAW DC for bending a bar? Is there one? And if there is, what metal is it? And then if we change the metal of the bar, what's the new DC then? Is that written down? And then once we write down the DCs for all the different metals used in bars, what's the RAW for how thick the metal bars are? Or the RAW for quality of the metal, like how rusted is it? Or what about how long the metal bar is, what the RAW for bending a 2' bar versus a 10' bar? All of these things would need to be determined to create a "RAW DC" of bending this bar if "playing RAW" was so important.

Do you do that? Do you have those kind of details in your game so that you can "play RAW"? If you do... well, good for you. Feel free to do that at your table. But now if you are expecting the D&D DMG to have all those possible adjustments listed in the game going forward... I suspect you will be disappointed-- because it is unnecessary when you can use the true RAW of 5E... which is "Rulings, Not Rules". The DM need a DC for a 7' long, rusted, bronze bar a 1/2 thick? They just make it up. Whatever DC sounds good. You don't need "RAW"... you just need a little improvisation and common sense. Which most DMs can do.

But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, because no matter how long a DC chart or how short a chart or what words they use to define the different DCs, or how high the numbers on the DC chart go to... every DM is going to just use whatever system them want anyway. I know I will. And if WotC decides for whatever reason to actually create the system you think it needs... then good news for you. Congratulations, you got what you wanted. But it's probably not going to matter for the rest of us because we'll just end up doing what we always do and use whatever houserule decisions and systems we prefer regardless of what WotC prints.

Just like you might have to do should WotC NOT produce the system you want for 2024E.
The answer for 5e is in both the DMG and PHB. I cited page numbers for each earlier in post 160.
Task DifficultyDC
Very easy5
Easy10
Medium15
Hard20
Very hard25
Nearly impossible30

Bending that bar in 5e and any other bar is either very easy(for who?), easy(for who?), medium(for who?), hard(for who?), very hard(for who?), or nearly impossible(for who?). Pick one and crash into the fact that now you as GM need to track "all the different metals used in bars, what's the RAW for how thick the metal bars are? Or the RAW for quality of the metal, like how rusted is it? Or what about how long the metal bar is, what the RAW for bending a 2' bar versus a 10' bar? All of these things". (Very) easy for who? Hard for who? Nearly impossible for who?... don't forget to track those too. Don't want to track it as a gm? Too bad, your players will eventually remind you of the time that some other bar was easier than this one while pointing at the DC chart.

"Length" of the DC chart is different from the question of if the DC chart scales high enough to cover the range of PC abilities or not. Given that PCs can start the game with around +6 or so and end the game with +18 or +18 with the inability to roll less than 10 the 5e DC chart obviously fails to scale adequately & does so with even the most cursory of glances. That was not always the case & I'll explain why.

Focusing on the details of the bar rather than who could do it demonstrates a failure of understanding though. The 3.5 dmg table 2-5 Difficulty Class Examples on pg31 illustrates what you are missing by focusing on a specific rock near a specific tree in a forest & it does so in the column headings before providing even a single example. Tho1se headings are DC, Example, Roll (Key Ability), & Who could do it. That last one is critical because it acknowledges that not every action can be easily quantified even if it's easy enough to estimate parts of it. You can find the data from all of those columns here, but we need to look specifically at just the "who could do it" list to answer your uncertainties with any given example.

When you look at "who could do it" you see that the examples span from the lowest of the low for things like "hearing the sounds of a pitched battle"(a commoner on the other side of a stone wall) to the most extreme excess of specialization with things like "Track a goblin that passed over hard rocks a week ago, and it snowed yesterday "(A 20th-level ranger who has maxed out his Survival skill and has been fighting goblinoids as his favored enemy since 1st level). In addition to thhat range it presents a denmonstration of hoq once existing subsystems can modify a target for edge cases with an example that calls out different DCs for a ranger & a barbarian because of speed differences.

It's your example, who should be able to bend the bar? The 5e rules ignore that and provide the GM with little more than an incomplete PH chart. I considered linking to a PH chart but try as I might to find one it seems that those don't come with only 6 variations like the 5e dc chart has.
 

Minigiant

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Supporter
What is the RAW DC for bending a bar? Is there one? And if there is, what metal is it? And then if we change the metal of the bar, what's the new DC then? Is that written down? And then once we write down the DCs for all the different metals used in bars, what's the RAW for how thick the metal bars are? Or the RAW for quality of the metal, like how rusted is it? Or what about how long the metal bar is, what the RAW for bending a 2' bar versus a 10' bar? All of these things would need to be determined to create a "RAW DC" of bending this bar if "playing RAW" was so important.
That's the point.

5e is the first D&D edition where a player can't gauge. A Player can't guess "Hmm.. My caracter might be able to bend this. Maybe 50% chance."

Older editions had tables with the percentage on them.
Older editions might give classes a d6 with a 5 or 6 as a success.
Older editions suggested a roll under ability scores.
One older edition had tables of challenges and their DCs
One older edition attempted to level all challenges, define a base chance for equal level challenges, and give a 5% gradient for every level up or down.

5e does "10 is easy, 15 is medium, 20 is hard. East medium or hard for whom? IDK.Your DM will figure it out every time".

And everyone is shock when eventually everyone tied to use their highest Ability for everything and Magic stuff away when they can afford it due to uncertainty.

This is why I say on many discussions that 5e,FRK,and other freeform lowrulessystems only work if everyone is imagining the same exact fantasy. You can't have someone imagining LOTR, another SAO, and another GOT.
 

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