How would you like to see Grapple changed?

[Baby Samurai]

Frankly everything dealing with fighting without weapons needs to be rethought and upgraded.

Absolutely, the whole natural weapon/natural attack/unarmed strike fiasco has to be cleared up.

 

[Wormwood]

Absolutely, the whole natural weapon/natural attack/unarmed strike fiasco has to be cleared up.

Mega-QFT.

Attacks = Attacks.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Mega-QFT.

Wow, I've never been quoted with a "QFT" before, let alone with a "Mega" prefix, I'm flattered – thanks!

 

[Celebrim]

Yeah, this is basically how it works. I kind of have a mixed opinion about them. I told all of my friends about them and they are pretty much horrified that all their options are taken away.

The saga system doesn't allow you to pin someone without a feat. You can't deal damage in a grapple without a feat. It's impossible to grapple someone then forcibly move them anywhere.

Oh good grief. Yes, please take away my options. That's so exciting. I don't want to be able to trip, disarm, bull rush, overrun, or grapple without a special feat. I can't be trusted to actually learn rules, you know, as my reading comprehension is only at the fourth grade level. Less words and more big comic book art, please. Sheesh.

Feats should make you better at something. I wholly dislike manuevers mascarading as feats, and would pretty much take one glance at that and put the book back on the shelf as poor design that says 'No.' to players, discourages creativity, and leads to redundant repetitive play.

 

[Cadfan]

Whatever form the rules take they just need to satisfy what someone is actually trying to *do* when they grapple in 3.5:

* Prevent spell-casting
* Prevent attack/soak up attack
* Immobilize
* ..any others?

I see no reason why these can't be slipped into the normal combat model, again, in whatever form it ends up taking.

* Throwing someone off a roof
* Carrying someone around restrained
* Stop them from making noise
* Take a weapon away from someone

 

[Celebrim]

Pretty much there shouldn't be that many times when grappling should be the best option you have compared to hitting someone with your weapon or casting a spell, etc. Right now, there is almost no reason NOT to grapple any wizard you see, even if you are BAD at grappling. I'd like to see that changed.

Then get rid of hit points. Use a wound/vitality system so that you can drop the wizard in one swing. Institute shock damage like GURPS. Make weapons truly lethal.

The problem you have is you want to fight against something that is actually realistic, namely, that grappling is a very effective technique in alot of situations. If you watch MMA, you'll know that there are alot of reasons for taking someone to the mat. In real combat, one good reason to grapple is that the opponent is better armed than you. Another good reason is that your raw strength (or size) is much greater than your opponents. Combat versus the Wizard is alot like that. They are well armed and typically weak.

But not only are you fighting realism, you are fighting against the heroic nature of D&D. D&D makes characters, even wizards, very durable. High level characters can take alot of punishment. Because of hit points, its very hard to stick a peice of steel in something and dismember it. This serves to heighten the normal realistic advantages of grappling compared to attacking with weapons. Grappling bypasses the hit point system, by imposing a condition on the opponent - something that D&D makes very difficult to do with a sword.

 

[timbannock]

Feats should make you better at something. I wholly dislike manuevers mascarading as feats, and would pretty much take one glance at that and put the book back on the shelf as poor design that says 'No.' to players, discourages creativity, and leads to redundant repetitive play.

Agreed. If D&D takes this angle for 4E, that's a whole lot of houseruling I have to do to get rid of that.

Telling players "you can't do that" when it's pretty much a standard thing you see in the genre is pretty bad design.

 

[Baby Samurai]

I can't be trusted to actually learn rules, you know, as my reading comprehension is only at the fourth grade level.

Well at least you admit it, there are so many people around these forums that tout their incredible reading comprehension and grammar blah blah.

I totally commend you for actually admitting your shortcomings, if only more people were this honest.

 

[Celebrim]

Well at least you admit it, there are so many people around these forums that tout their incredible reading comprehension and grammar blah blah.

I totally commend you for actually admitting your shortcomings, if only more people were this honest.

Please use small words. I read slow.

 

[Stalker0]

First thing is put in the AE rule where if you use escape artist to escape a grapple, then the opponent doesn't get their size bonus/penalty to the grapple check. It makes EA a LOT more useful.