How would you like to see Grapple changed?

[Badkarmaboy]

3.5 Grapple rules leave a lot to be desired (to say the least). They work, but darn are they messy.

Saga's rules, from what I remember, are much more efficent and make a good bit of sense. There are still options for PCs and it's nowhere near as wonky.

 

[Av3rnus]

I wish I had SWSE in front of me to reference, but I also recall its grappling rules being considerably more streamlined. I wasn't too keen on the idea of needing a feat just to grapple at all, but I definitely remember being impressed by the idea of a simple 'grab' attack.

With current 3.5 grappling rules, I can think of two main issues:

1. Trying to do too much at once. A single grapple generally involves three rolls: AoO, touch attack to grab, and then grapple to hold. I think it would be better to eliminate the AoO, and then only bring the actual grappling into play on subsequent turns - e.g. when the grapplee tries to escape, or when the grappler tries to restrain, damage, or move their opponent.

2. Sizing issues. Really big monsters will pretty much auto-succeed on grapple checks. They usually have a high enough attack bonus to make the initial grab, and they definitely have enough bonuses from size and strength that almost any PC will lose. That might be more realistic, but it strikes me as more annoying than fun. Perhaps we could just get rid of the size bonus, since strength is indirectly improved by size as it is?

 

[Celebrim]

Sizing issues. Really big monsters will pretty much auto-succeed on grapple checks. They usually have a high enough attack bonus to make the initial grab, and they definitely have enough bonuses from size and strength that almost any PC will lose. That might be more realistic, but it strikes me as more annoying than fun. Perhaps we could just get rid of the size bonus, since strength is indirectly improved by size as it is?

I'm not sure that you'd want to do away with the size bonus, but it might could be tweaked. Mass does matter. The problem with big creatures grabbing little creatures is that they have a hard time using thier whole strength to do it. If you grab a small animal, you are grabbing thier whole body and applying the strength from just a portion of yours. A more realistic system would say, only let you use 50% of your strength bonus against a target that is two size classes smaller than you. Think of a kraken grappling you. He can only really smoosh you with a single tentacle, where as he can apply his whole strength to the ship. Even though you are much smaller than the ship, you might be harder to keep ahold of. You are just too small of prey for the monster's design.

Some suggestions other than just doing away with the size bonus:

1) The size bonus only applies on grapple checks to resist being grappled (defensively) and not offensively.
2) Using escape artist to oppose a grapple check negates the size bonus (I like that. 'Yoink')
3) Size bonuses are halved (+2 vs. +4).
4) Use the above suggested awkwardness penalty (only half of your strength bonus if the target is more than two size classes smaller than you). Maybe expand that out to a table.
5) Strength bonus doesn't apply to hit when making a touch attack.

Some combination of the above ought to help while still making getting sat on by a 5 ton giant a thing to worry about.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Oddly enough, I do have Saga in front of me right now.

As a Standard Action, you can make a Grab attack against an opponent up to 1 size category larger than you. You take a -5 penalty on your attack roll, and it's an unarmed attack (which means it provokes an AoO if you don't have Martial Arts I; however, taking damage from the AoO doesn't spoil the Grab).

If you hit, your opponent is Grabbed. Grabbed opponents take a -2 penalty to all attacks with non-natural or non-light weapons. It also cannot move. Breaking a grab is a standard action which automatically frees you from CL grabbers.

If you have the Pin or Trip feats, you can make a Grapple attack against an opponent up to one size category larger than you as a Standard Action. You make an unarmed attack (again, c.f. Martial Arts I) at no penalty, and if you hit, you and your opponent make Grapple checks (which, in SWSE, use the better of Strength or Dexterity).

If you have Pin, your opponent is held in place, loses their Dex bonus to Reflex Defense, and can take no actions at all for one turn (barring an Escape Artist check to escape, depending on how you read the rules). If you have Pin and Crush, you deal unarmed strike (or claw, if greater) damage each time you pin your opponent.

If you have Trip, your opponent falls prone in their square, taking the normal penalties for being prone.

If you have Trip and Throw, you may instead move the target into any empty square up to 1 square beyond your own reach in any direction, and the opponent takes unarmed strike damage.

In lieu of using Pin or Trip, you may instead deal damage with a light weapon.

 

[Victim]

Grappling in 3.5 basically reduces one combatant to making a series of grapple checks in the hope of getting back to the normal fight. If you can't make the checks, then your character pretty much can't do anything - escaping requires a grapple check, drawing a weapon requires a grapple check, etc. Grappling restricts an opponent's options in a rather extreme fashion - once it's used, the fight basically becomes a grappling contest. The extreme range of bonuses (thanks to size and STR on monsters) only compounds this problem. It's an incapacitating effect with a 'save' people won't be able to make.

And, in realistic terms, grappling doesn't take people to the ground.

 

[breschau]

And, in realistic terms, grappling doesn't take people to the ground.

Never seen an MMA match then have you?

Specifically, putting someone in a headlock or an arm bar does not, in fact, place them on the ground. But, why else would you grapple with someone unless you wanted to immobilize them, meaning take them to the ground?

 

[mmadsen]

Because of hit points, its very hard to stick a peice of steel in something and dismember it. This serves to heighten the normal realistic advantages of grappling compared to attacking with weapons. Grappling bypasses the hit point system, by imposing a condition on the opponent - something that D&D makes very difficult to do with a sword.

Actually, hit points compound grappling's advantage in another way. Not only do grappling attacks side-step hit points, but hit points soften the chief reason you don't grapple in real life -- closing the distance is dangerous, but if you have a buffer of hit points, you're suddenly willing to suck up "just" one spear thrust or sword slash to take a technical stand-up fighter out of his game.

 

[Woas]

I like the Iron Heroes grapple rules. They work for me. You can even lift people over your head and throw them!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I prefer the 'Grappling for Begginners' rules... a PDF by our most esteemable Morrus here on the boards..

And based on the above, its much like was SW Sage does, but you can pin, etc.. without feats. Feats just let you do more cool things {like Throw}

 

[XCorvis]

Oddly enough, I do have Saga in front of me right now.

As a Standard Action, you can make a Grab attack against an opponent up to 1 size category larger than you. You take a -5 penalty on your attack roll, and it's an unarmed attack (which means it provokes an AoO if you don't have Martial Arts I; however, taking damage from the AoO doesn't spoil the Grab).

If you hit, your opponent is Grabbed...

What happens to the attacker? Are they also "grabbed" or do they have a different state?

IMO, those rules are a heck of a lot better. It makes a certain amount of sense that it takes an additional level of skill to pin or trip someone. I know how to punch someone, but I don't really have any idea how I'd pin someone to prevent them from moving. Anyway, I think feats are a bit more common in SAGA (correct me if I'm wrong), and since it's almost automatic it's worth it for that type of character.