D&D 4E How would you re-envision Darksun with 4e?

[outsider]

I had a bit of a eureka moment while reading another thread. What I'd do as far as defiling/perserving goes is something like this:

When you start out, you are just a wizard. While the wizard shouldn't neccessarily have to defile, the temptation should be there. As such, I'd probably use defiling as the wizard's mechanic to recharge a per encounter ability while in combat. It represents the "use your resources wisely so you don't have to defile" flavor pretty well I think, without completely crippling wizards that try not to defile. I'd also make Preserver and Defiler paragon paths, granting Preservers some new sort of recharge ability to replace the defiling, and obviously giving the defilers further abilities that require defiling.

 

[Najo]

I had a bit of a eureka moment while reading another thread. What I'd do as far as defiling/perserving goes is something like this:

When you start out, you are just a wizard. While the wizard shouldn't neccessarily have to defile, the temptation should be there. As such, I'd probably use defiling as the wizard's mechanic to recharge a per encounter ability while in combat. It represents the "use your resources wisely so you don't have to defile" flavor pretty well I think, without completely crippling wizards that try not to defile. I'd also make Preserver and Defiler paragon paths, granting Preservers some new sort of recharge ability to replace the defiling, and obviously giving the defilers further abilities that require defiling.

This is the right direction. Essentially, Preservers and Defilers are both wizards, the darkside of defiling can be done by any of them, when they defile it corrupts them. All kinds of bad that follow that corruption then follows suite.

Defilers ARE more powerful (gaining metamagic type effects and in 4e per encounter recharges etc) but the cost is alienation by the natural world and those connected to it. Defilers (from low level "sith" to Sorcerer Kings) are the reason Athas is dying. Perservers have connections to the veiled alliance, druids and the heroes of the setting. Publicly all wizards are hung or burnt. Most people do not understand the differences, nor should they. Also, any perserver can go bad at any time. Corrupted by the temptation of defiling. This means even the secret orders of wizards hidden about Athas have to watch their own numbers for the signs of defiler's taint.

 

[outsider]

Heh, now I can't stop thinking about 4e Dark Sun.

I was trying to think of what to do for Gladiators, as I believe that they tend to step on the toes of fighters. When I really started thinking about it, I realised that 4e Warlords actually fit as a Dark Sun fighter better than the 4e fighter does. Fighters have always been the tactical leader types in Dark Sun, where Gladiators take over the "master of all combat" role that is assigned to fighters in other settings. So, what I'd probably do in 4e Dark Sun is slightly modify the 4e fighter class and call it the Gladiator, and probably leave the Warlord as is. Could rename the Warlord to Fighter, but that would cause more confusion than is neccessary. Maybe just rename it to Warrior.

 

[Najo]

Heh, now I can't stop thinking about 4e Dark Sun.

I was trying to think of what to do for Gladiators, as I believe that they tend to step on the toes of fighters. When I really started thinking about it, I realised that 4e Warlords actually fit as a Dark Sun fighter better than the 4e fighter does. Fighters have always been the tactical leader types in Dark Sun, where Gladiators take over the "master of all combat" role that is assigned to fighters in other settings. So, what I'd probably do in 4e Dark Sun is slightly modify the 4e fighter class and call it the Gladiator, and probably leave the Warlord as is. Could rename the Warlord to Fighter, but that would cause more confusion than is neccessary. Maybe just rename it to Warrior.

Once you get that Dark Sun bug, it really digs in

 

[Sitara]

I also recall in one of the novels that Hamanu was...less evil than the other SK's. At the lkeast, he had a high sense of honor. the novel dealt with somne strange undead plague or something; and the protagonist (whowas a templar of hamanu) called uppon hamanu at the end for Flamestryke!! destroying an army of low level warriors.

Very impressive to me at that age.

Anyhow, can someone give me a list of the Sk's who were killed off in the novels and as the setting was revised, and how they were killed?

 

[Najo]

Anyhow, can someone give me a list of the Sk's who were killed off in the novels and as the setting was revised, and how they were killed?

Here ya go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun#The_Champions_of_Rajaat

 

[Sitara]

One thang that bugged me is that many sorceror kings (hamanu, kalak, borys) were said to be powerful warrriors. they even abttled rajaat in melee...but stat wise they were all wizards/psioniscists. I guess they used tenser's transformation...

Also, Rajaat was defeated and imprisoned by his champions. But when he is set free 2000 years later he manages to defeat them...even though they are now sorceror-kings and dragons. (i.e. much more powerful). That is somewhat inconsistant.

Laslty, what which avangion was the one who starts the transformation in the tribe of One series conclusion? Whatever becomes of him, and what exactly is the point of becoming an avangion, since they still seem to be weaker than the sorceror-kings and dragon-kings (keep getting killed by borys or even non-sorceorkings or what have you)

 

[Klaus]

I don't know, I kinda liked the second logo for DS.

I did this one about 10 years ago:

 

[Raduin711]

Laslty, what which avangion was the one who starts the transformation in the tribe of One series conclusion?

A would-be avangion that is unique to the Tribe of One series. He is never mentioned anywhere else.

and what exactly is the point of becoming an avangion, since they still seem to be weaker than the sorceror-kings and dragon-kings (keep getting killed by borys or even non-sorceorkings or what have you)

The idea is that an avangion, as an anti-dragon, is supposed to be a last-ditch spark of hope for Athas. A pinnacle of the preserver philosophy. The reason that most avangions are weaker is because they all have begun their transformation in the recent past. The most powerful Avangion who is definitely alive is Oronis, and only because it is a secret. If someone could finish the transformation into a full-fledged avangion, then perhaps the SK's could be beaten. An avangion could possibly even undo damage done to athas, but then again, nobody really knows because nobody has finished the process.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

This is the right direction. Essentially, Preservers and Defilers are both wizards, the darkside of defiling can be done by any of them, when they defile it corrupts them. All kinds of bad that follow that corruption then follows suite.

Defilers ARE more powerful (gaining metamagic type effects and in 4e per encounter recharges etc) but the cost is alienation by the natural world and those connected to it. Defilers (from low level "sith" to Sorcerer Kings) are the reason Athas is dying. Perservers have connections to the veiled alliance, druids and the heroes of the setting. Publicly all wizards are hung or burnt. Most people do not understand the differences, nor should they. Also, any perserver can go bad at any time. Corrupted by the temptation of defiling. This means even the secret orders of wizards hidden about Athas have to watch their own numbers for the signs of defiler's taint.

*nods*
the rules from the Athas.org 3.5 ed were pretty good, for defilers what I'd do is use mostly what they did: take defiling as "feats", when used they give a metamagic effect to any spell you cast, but at the cost of life to those creatures around you.
This would also make clear why high level defilers are said to cause folk to die by defiling, where as the rules only seemed ot make it kill plants and discomfort creatures, which never made sense to me.

For example, Defiling Empower Spell, same as normal Empower, but useable at will, you don't have to prepare at 2 levels higher. the defiling effect does 1hp/spell level, including the +2 levels for Empower, in a 1' radius per caster level, will save for half.

The defiler thus can freely boost his spells, but will destroy plants etc (no will save allowed normally to inanimate/non stat type creatures, so small/simple plants automatically die).

Where there isn't enough life to suport this: no plants or say 1 creature per spell level in radius, the effect cannot be used.
This would also mean defilers could have slaves always at his side, for sucking their life...adding another interesting dimension!

Outisder,
"Gladiator" is just a profession! It's no different to being an "assassin", both are killers who work in a certain way: one in an arena, the other for pay by stealth.
What "class" they are doesn't matter at all, it's what they do that counts, now how

That was a mistake of Dark Sun and the 3.5 rules. "gladiators" are mostly just fighters or fighter/rogues.

The two fighting proffessions of Athas and ancient Rome: Soldier and Gladiator. Each is trained differently. A gladiator will generally beat a soldier in street fight, but a company of soldiers will slaughter a bunch of gladiators in a battle. This is because of their training, not because gladiators are somehow magically better (though that can occur in some campigns ) Spartacus' gladiators were butchered by the Roman legions, but in nasty street fights etc, tha gladiators often had an edge.

let's examine them from D&D terms:

A professional soldier, or successful gladiator, is *NOT* a mook, they are not 1st level warriors! They are picked men, chosen on merit.
Each requires 6 months of training or more, advancing in experience and skill.
Take a typical *veteran* legionary or gladiator, say they are 3rd level fighters.

The gladiator will take feats for close in combat, to survive better, say weapon focus, Dodge, Mobility, two weapon fighting, etc to let him use sword and shield at same time, effectively in combat. He has many paths open to him, the crowd likes varying types of fighitng, his trainers encourage this.

The legionary needs Endurance, to the ability march in full pack and training for such was vital, while the gladiator was extremely fit, it was more for dexterity and strength, than lugging a pack! Iron Will is good, to hold steady in battle, certainly a feat for any Centurions. TThe legionary does train with his shortsword, but at least as important is his shield. Thus feats like Phalanx Fighting are important to a soldier, so he and his comrades can provide a unified front, improving ALL their armour class. Some legionaries excel with the short sword, some with the javelin (weapon focus) but all most work together and obey orders, which doesn't really have a D&D feat that I know of, but is not something gladitors can do because they are not trained for it.

-Working as a coherent unit, soldiers will slaughter gladiators on the battlefield, but in an alley way, a dungeon etc, where it's one on one, a gladiators skills will shine.
Thus, for D&D, there is absolutely no need for a "gladiator" class: they are just fighters who take feats/skills in a certain path