D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun

[Haldrik]

Especially for Clerics, I feel the Elements have ethical implications.

The book mentions personality types in passing, such as Fire Clerics are destructive and maniacal, Air Clerics are flighty but prescient, Water Clerics should have been happy, content, and healing others, but now are desperate, apparently from the Classical Hellenistic humors, Choleric, Sanguine, Phlegmatic, and likewise for Melancholy Earth.

Ethically, Water is compassion. So the destruction of Water is literally the depletion of compassion. The world is literally more cruel, less tolerant, less nurturing, less innovative.

Fire is justice, a holy ethic. But without compassion, the justice becomes merciless, impatient, vengeful. Wrathful. Annihilating.

Air is balance, able to integrate opposing points of view, benefiting from insights beyond oneself, and optimize a sophisticated dynamic equilibrium, a living ecosystem, where harmony becomes possible. Air is about coexistence. Air integrates. Air explores. Air inspires. Air heals. Air sustains wellbeing. Normally. But without Water, with Fire without harmony, Air is motionless without hope, without fun. Even haughty and arrogant.

Earth can be the most powerful Element, because it is the place where life happens, and ethical persons do concrete physical actions of compassion and of justice. Earth is pragmatic, and industrious. Earth gets things done. But without harmony, Earth becomes a bleak wasteland, isolated, without dreams, without ethics. Soulless. Grim and brutal. Or quiet desperation.

Water=compassion
Fire=justice
Air=balance
Earth=pragmatism

 

[Haldrik]

I would dump paraelemental clerics.

Yeah. The paraelementals seem more like a distraction from the coherent tropes of Dark Sun.

If a paraelemental happens to show up, like a Sun=Smoke Elemental, then let the Air Cleric relate to it as Air and the Fire Cleric relate to it as Fire.

There seems less use for a specialist who must be Air-Fire to the exclusion of Air and Fire.

 

[Haldrik]

I am interested in exploring how the Four Elements relate to the Arcane power source. This requires sorting out the concepts that relate to each of the four. Different cultures and different systems have used the elements as a simple way to organize complex principles. So the meanings of each element depends on which system one is looking at. Systems can conflict with each other, so correspondences between systems can be ambiguous.

The Four Elementals are always Five. But the "Fifth Element" is unchanging, thus may or may not be mentioned when describing the interactivity of the four elements that do change.

The Five Elements originate from Hellenistic philosophy, as part of thought experiments relating to fundamental unit of matter, the atom. Some philosophies understood everything to be made out of water. Others proposed fire. The tradition here settles on five distinct units.

• Ether (clean air above the clouds)
• Water
• Fire
• Air (hazy air of atmosphere, combining watery moisture, and fiery heat and lightning, plus earthy atmospheric dust)
• Earth

In this early system, the ether corresponds to the "heavens" above all, while the earth corresponds to the "land" down below. By extension, this ether is pure and unchanging. Precisely because ether cannot change, it is often unmentioned when describing the four elements that do change and do interact with each other. Yet the ether itself is notable. Since the ether is unchanging, it is understood as perfect, eternal, immortal, transcendent. Immortal creatures are sometimes understood to be made out of ether.

Some systems understand all things to ultimately be made out of ether (similar to how moderns might think of all matter to be made out of energy). Within the temporality of time, ether can divide up into the four elements. But these four temporal elements interact within the eternal ether beyond.



By the time of the Medieval Period, roughly around 1100, Rambam (aka Maimonides) describes the five elements in a way that anticipates modern science. These are not atoms, but rather they are states of matter that various kinds of atoms can undergo: solid, gas, plasma (namely sun, stars, and lightning), and liquid. The fifth element is unlike the other four elements. The fifth element is invisible and insubstantial. He calls it "force", and describes it as the gravity that holds the wandering planets in orbit.

(It amazes me how people can arrive at such accurate descriptions by means of cautious observations and thought experiments.)

These four states of matter, plus force, are a useful way to make sense of the five elements in their most literal and concrete meaning.

This protoscience corresponds well to the Arcane power source.




The immortal qualities of the element of ether inspire alchemists to speculate how to become immortal. Gods then angels come to be understood as made out of ether. Those who ascend to heaven are ethereal. Eventually, alchemists equate ether with the "immortal soul". Thus by extension, in some alchemical processes, the conscious mindful intention of the alchemist is the ethereal ingredient that makes the process work. Also by extension, alchemy uses "life" as the ethereal ingredient, especially in the sense of healing, medicine, and eternal youth.

Thus in D&D, the mechanics to describe the fifth element seem variegated: ether, ethereal plane, force construct, force damage, magical/psionic/arcane energy, conjuration, healing, lifeforce, ki, soul, and even concentration.

Moreover, the immortal qualities of ether make the Ethereal Plane and the Astral Wheel of Planes moreorless the same thing. Plus, both the Positivity Plane (in the sense of all things) and the Negativity Plane (in the sense of no thing) can be understood as "ether".

So there is still more sorting out to do.



Meanwhile, Daoism in Asia is developing its own system of elements, and its own alchemical protoscience. It is mainly informed by binary structure to elegant effect. The main difference is, Daoist elements are ways of moving (not kinds of substances). Thus soil and empty space are the same thing because both are motionless. Tree and air are the same thing because both expand outward to encompass other elements. And so on. When the Hellenistic elements come to be understood as states of matter, there is surprising agreement between ways of moving and kinds of substance. Likewise, the force of gravity corresponds well to the Daoist/Buddhist concept of empty space.



The following is my attempt to correspond different systems that refer to the five elements. The sixth element sotospeak is when the all of the elements are in harmony with each other. Here, a Human is the measure of all things. When the elements are in harmony, each level of human life becomes possible. For D&D, this means any Humanoid.

HARMONY / HUMAN	ETHER / SOIL	EARTH / METAL	AIR / TREE	FIRE	WATER
Enlightenment	Consciousness	Desire	Share	Detach	Give
Spirit	Language	Pragmatism	Inclusiveness	Justice	Compassion
Soul	Life	Withdrawn	Expansive	Hostile	Helpful
BODY	FORCE	SOLID	GAS	PLASMA	LIQUID

Tinkering with the above table, consider the following sources of magic.

SOURCE		ETHER	HARMONY	PLANE
Psionic	(Mindfulness)	Consciousness	Enlightenment
Divine	(Symbols, Concepts, Ideals)	Language	Spirit	Astral, Celestial, Infernal, Dream
Primal	(Ki, Humanoid, Beast, Plant, Environment)	Life	Soul	Natural, Fey, Shadow
Arcane	(Protoscience, Spell Components)	Force	Body	Ethereal, Elemental

Actually, Psionics looks more like the application of the element of Ether itself, directly, at different levels.

ETHER	= PSIONIC
Consciousness	= Clairvoyance, Teleportation
Language	= Telepathy, Charm, Dream
Life	= Psychometabolism (Shapeshift, Heal), Ki
Force	= Telekinesis, Fly, Force Construct

So, Arcane is horizontal including all five elements (Force, Earth, Air, Fire, Water), but Psionic is vertical including Force only.

 

[bulletmeat]

I'd like them to give up the IP so it can be done in a d100 system; Runequest, Mythras, etc.
I think that it can be done in 5e but to much kitchen sink concepts dilute the setting as said before.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I think D&D is more interesting with the quasi and paraelementals.

What if there is a parallel universe where Rajaat almost won? Athas is blue again, but almost all races have to hide to survive the cleasing wars, and the lifeshape tech is causing new troubles. Or the rebellion against Rajaat started almost before the cleasing wars. There are different "Athas" and everybody want to controll the "nexus", the multiplanar gate.

It is curious. Rajaat started the cleasing wars, causing the end of the green age because he wanted the return of the blue age. And now we are like Rajaat, we want the return of the previous age because we don't like the changes and the new things have been added.

 

[Haldrik]

Here is an approximation for the magic of the Dark Sun Druids. Earth, Air, and Ether are solid. Fire and Water are bit forced, but there is some sense to them.

	ETHER	EARTH	AIR	FIRE	WATER	HARMONY
PRIMAL	Life / Ki / Soul	Landscape Feature	Plant	Beast	Humanoid	Ecosystem

 

[Protonicmass]

You know, most of the Demon Lord's and Archdevils are named after real-world equivalents too; we should get rid of Asmodeus, Orcus, Baphomet, Mammon, Moloch, Pazuzu and others. And since there are reall world Satanists, Warlock might be offensive to their beliefs.

Maybe we can just avoid using demonology terms altogether to avoid offending people: change Hell and Devils to, I dunno, Baator and Baatezu and demons to Tanar'ri? We could likewise remain the other planes named after real world religion afterlifes as well: Mechanus for Nirvana, Mount Celestia for Heaven, Arborea for Olympus, etc.

Next; what to do about half-orcs and assassins in the PHB...

Uh... Orcus doesn't exist.

 

[Protonicmass]

By the way, I know reallife people who worship some of these gods that the Cleric class mentions in the Players Handbook.

So, to claim that "theyre not real" is factually false. They are reallife religions.

Moreover, the same polytheistic god can go by any number of names, so whether a particular name is historical or idiosyncratic is moot. The polytheism itself is the prohibition.

God, this is stupid.
Stupid...
where do I start with this?
"I know real life people that worship X"
"Therefore, X is real"
What does that stem from?
"If something is believed, it is therefore true".
You need some lessons on logical fallacies.

 

[wingsandsword]

God, this is stupid.
Stupid...
where do I start with this?
"I know real life people that worship X"
"Therefore, X is real"
What does that stem from?
"If something is believed, it is therefore true".
You need some lessons on logical fallacies.

There's a difference between a completely fictional deity that exists as a literary device (), and one that has real-world flesh-and-blood worshippers.

Many, or most, of the various historic pantheons that D&D has used for games have real world adherents and are real-world religions as well as being gaming setting elements.

The Japanese Pantheon? That's called Shinto.
The Vedic Pantheon? That's called Hinduism.
The Chinese Pantheon? That's Chinese Folk Religion, also known as Shenism.
The Norse Pantheon? That's called Asatru, also known as Heathernry.
The Olympian Pantheon? That's called Hellenism.
The Celtic Pantheon? That's Celtic Paganism.

Saint Cuthbert, the deity of common sense, truth, and wisdom from Greyhawk, is the same individual of St. Cuthbert of Lindisfarne, a 7th century Christian Saint (venerated in Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox Christianity).

. . .and real-world Satanists have used a number of the various names thrown about in D&D for names of demons and devils in their rituals and worship as well.

 

[wingsandsword]

Uh... Orcus doesn't exist.

Orcus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Roman God of Broken Oaths and sometimes worshiped as a God of the Underworld in lieu of Hades or Dis Pater (especially in more rural areas, where Orcus's worship was more popular, he had no official temples in the cities). Believed to be a Roman adaptation of the Daemon Horkos from Greek Mythology, that existed to punish broken oaths.

The Roman name Orcus was the linguistic root of both the French word ogre (where we got our name for minor giants for D&D) and where Tolkien got the root for Orcs his works.

He's as real as the other beings in the same list that you listed and had no objection to like Mammon or Baphomet.