Human Monks can take Improved Natural Attack?

Do human monks qualify for Improved Natural Attack?

  • No, not per the Rules as Wriiten (RAW).

    Votes: 56 24.7%
  • Yes, per the RAW.

    Votes: 130 57.3%
  • Yes, because of the Sage's recent ruling.

    Votes: 67 29.5%
  • No, but I'll allow it in my games.

    Votes: 23 10.1%
  • Yes, but I'll disallow it in my games.

    Votes: 15 6.6%

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RigaMortus2 said:
If a Human Monk is hit by Reduce Person, does he retain his "medium sized" damage for unarmed strikes?

No - this has nothing to do with him having a natural weapon, his actual size got changed, so everything based on that size changed as well. Bad example.

A better example would be a Curse Fang, Curse Weapon, or something along those lines. I am sure there is something, but I just can't think of it right now.
 

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FoxWander said:
So the analogy should be: (coming from a monk or person with IUS feat) My fists are part of me, I am considered to be armed with them and don't provoke AoO when I attack with them. Natural weapons are part of a creature, make that creature to be considered armed and don't provoke AoO when used to attack. My fists are natural weapons.
Natural weapons can be used to make secondary attacks and do not permit additional attacks due to high base attack bonuses. A monk's fists do permit additional attacks due to high base attack bonuses and cannot be used to make secondary attacks. A monk's fists are not natural weapons.

However, they are treated as natural weapons for purposes such as INA.
 

I had a three-day vacation? Didn't even notice, I was playing RTKX the last few days without being on the internet. So much for that, heh.

Anyway, I saw someone mention on the other thread that no one considers a human monk's unarmed strike a natural weapon. I'd really like to know how this could be possible. You see, we have all this stating otherwise:

A human's natural attack is it's unarmed strike. A monk's unarmed strike ability makes that natural attack lethal with more damage, and is thus a special ability modifying an existing natural attack. Improved Natural Attack would be applied next, but on top of the existing abilities, not parallel to them. As such, the monk's unarmed strike is an ability-modified natural attack, and perfectly qualified for the feat. In fact, I'd go a step further and say that any human could take it, not just monks, but the effects would be pretty dang weak otherwise.

Anyway, I still don't see the debate here, not for the Rules forum. This forum is about the official rules. As-written, monks qualify. As per the Sage's ruling (and he is the official rules interpreter), monks qualify. According to Artoomis (I think it was Artoomis), customer service says monks qualify. The spirit of the rules suggest monks qualify. Based on all this with a dose of common sense and the word of people "in the know", the official stance is that monks qualify, and that means specifically that per the rules, monks qualify.

Now whether it's balanced or not, that is well and fine for a debate. Whether you wanna house rule or not is up to you as well. This is the Rules forum, though, and the official by-the-book and by-the-creators (Skip Williams's name is listed as being on the design team, so he is most certainly one of the creators) rule, for purposes of a Rules forum, is that monk's qualify.

Honestly, what gives anyone here the right to defy the very creators of the product on this? They made the rules, so what they say goes, at least officially speaking. Use whatever you want at your table, but if you argue it any other way, it's not the official rule anymore and belongs in another forum. The case is closed, and from the Sage's mouth to all your ears, one truth prevails.

Heh, and without a single insult. I must be happy about my overwhelming victory over Sun Quan last night.
 

FoxWander said:
Since swords are NOT "physically a part of a creature" (see the first sentence of the "natural weapon" definition) then they are NOT natural weapons, and thus, obviously, do not qualify for INA. However, a monk's fists/elbows/knees/feet are clearly "physically a part of" him and so DO fit the definition thus qualifying for INA.

So the analogy should be: (coming from a monk or person with IUS feat) My fists are part of me, I am considered to be armed with them and don't provoke AoO when I attack with them. Natural weapons are part of a creature, make that creature to be considered armed and don't provoke AoO when used to attack. My fists are natural weapons.

Can you attack with your hair as a Monk, and do "monk"damage with it? After all, it is physically a part of the creature...

If a Monk has a child, can that child attack doing 1d6 damage? After all, that child is physically a part of the creature.
 

Artoomis said:
No - this has nothing to do with him having a natural weapon, his actual size got changed, so everything based on that size changed as well. Bad example.

Well it's kind of like when you change your size category from medium to large via wildshape, and then cast Animal Growth on you... Same concept...

Only spells or effects that enhance natural weapons affect the monk. Going from medium to small does not in any way "enhance" their natural weapons. So I don't think it should affect their damage, right?
 

Anubis said:
A human's natural attack is it's unarmed strike.

There's a distinction between an unarmed strike and a natural weapon. Humans have unarmed strikes; they do not have natural weapons.

-Hyp.
 

Anubis said:
Anyway, I saw someone mention on the other thread that no one considers a human monk's unarmed strike a natural weapon. I'd really like to know how this could be possible. You see, we have all this stating otherwise:

A human's natural attack is it's unarmed strike...
Hold it right there. Where is it "stated" that a human's unarmed strike is a natural weapon?

The rules for natural weapons are set forth in the Monster Manual, and a human's unarmed strike does not follow them, so unless you have some authority for your starting premise, I'd say your conclusion is invalid.
 

Peter Gibbons said:
Hold it right there. Where is it "stated" that a human's unarmed strike is a natural weapon?

The rules for natural weapons are set forth in the Monster Manual, and a human's unarmed strike does not follow them, so unless you have some authority for your starting premise, I'd say your conclusion is invalid.
You (and others) are correct. A human's unarmed strike is not the same as a 'natural weapon' as defined in the rules. The Monk, of course, is the exception in the sense that it is considered a natural weapon for the purposes of yada yada...enter the debate. :)
 

Unarmed strike is their natural attack simply because without any other weapon, that is what they would attack with. The reason it doesn't necessarily fit the standard definition is because of the special modifiers on many humanoid races that make their attacks nonlethal. That, however, doesn't make them any less natural. It's an attack using a part of your body, that simple. There is nothing explicitly stating whether or not it's right, but the spirit of the rules is clear on that point.

It seems, however, that people around here (namely the previous two posters before Dimwhit) don't like to read entire posts. You see, I made two points. The first was merely about natural attacks in general, the second was about the rule itself. You attack the first part even though I didn't use that in the second part because it's truly a moot point. Anyway, since you didn't pay attention the first time, I'll repeat myself word-for-word. I suggest reading the entire post this time so you don't make yourself look bad again.



So yeah, READ THE WHOLE THING! In fact, I'll even underline the parts you conveniently skipped so you don't miss it again.

I had a three-day vacation? Didn't even notice, I was playing RTKX the last few days without being on the internet. So much for that, heh.

Anyway, I saw someone mention on the other thread that no one considers a human monk's unarmed strike a natural weapon. I'd really like to know how this could be possible. You see, we have all this stating otherwise:

A human's natural attack is it's unarmed strike. A monk's unarmed strike ability makes that natural attack lethal with more damage, and is thus a special ability modifying an existing natural attack. Improved Natural Attack would be applied next, but on top of the existing abilities, not parallel to them. As such, the monk's unarmed strike is an ability-modified natural attack, and perfectly qualified for the feat. In fact, I'd go a step further and say that any human could take it, not just monks, but the effects would be pretty dang weak otherwise.

Anyway, I still don't see the debate here, not for the Rules forum. This forum is about the official rules. As-written, monks qualify. As per the Sage's ruling (and he is the official rules interpreter), monks qualify. According to Artoomis (I think it was Artoomis), customer service says monks qualify. The spirit of the rules suggest monks qualify. Based on all this with a dose of common sense and the word of people "in the know", the official stance is that monks qualify, and that means specifically that per the rules, monks qualify.

Now whether it's balanced or not, that is well and fine for a debate. Whether you wanna house rule or not is up to you as well. This is the Rules forum, though, and the official by-the-book and by-the-creators (Skip Williams's name is listed as being on the design team, so he is most certainly one of the creators) rule, for purposes of a Rules forum, is that monk's qualify.

Honestly, what gives anyone here the right to defy the very creators of the product on this? They made the rules, so what they say goes, at least officially speaking. Use whatever you want at your table, but if you argue it any other way, it's not the official rule anymore and belongs in another forum. The case is closed, and from the Sage's mouth to all your ears, one truth prevails.


Heh, and without a single insult. I must be happy about my overwhelming victory over Sun Quan last night.
 
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The only problem there is that it's written that humans and other base races with only unarmed strikes do NOT have a Natural Weapon or Natural Attack Form. Not sure where that is though.

BY the RAW:

=1=_____Feats are effects......scion has shown this to be correct

+2+_____INA is a feat.....obvious

=3=_____INA has the prerequisits of BAB+4 and a Natural Weapon.....again obvious

+4+_____Base races with no weapons that can only attack with an Unarmed Strike do NOT have a natural weapon.....somwhere

Now the question is not IF a monk can benifit from INA, the question is if a monk can TAKE INA in the first place.

On this i'm not too sure at this time......I can see good arguments for both sides.
Anubis does have a point with the spirit of the RAW but how can we guess what the designers intended?
 

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