Human Monks can take Improved Natural Attack?

[Caliban]

Yawn....

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wait a minute here... If, "for purposes of what the feat grants, the monk's unarmed strike is a natural weapon," then how can they not meet the prerequisite of having a natural attack for the purposes of getting the effect that the feat grants?!?

Because the two are not intrinsically linked.

Let's say there's a bar. You're only allowed in if you're a member, or a guest of a member. Drinks are free for members, and cost a dollar for guests.

I have a card that says that for the purpose of obtaining drinks, I am considered a member.

Once I'm inside the bar, I don't have to pay for my drinks. But I can't actually get into the bar by myself - I can only get in as the guest of a member.

For the purpose of what being in the bar grants, I'm considered a member. But for the purpose of gaining entry to the bar, I'm not.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I do not have this book. What do you mean by 'written differently'?

The prerequisite for one feat is 'Orc'. The prerequisite for the other feat, in the same book, is 'Orc or Half-Orc'.

Do you feel that a Half-Orc qualifies for both feats, or only the second one?

-Hyp.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Legildur--you forget that some people voted for more than one option though I may not agree with Artoomis about the monk, but he's absolutely right about the poll numbers.

 

[Zandel]

You'd have to say only the feat that says 'orc' or 'half-orc'.

 

[Scion]

I think I found the part you were refering to.

We have this:

Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc

So, is the feat in question something that relates to the race?

The feat is an effect already, so now we just have to figure out if the feat is related to the race. If it isnt then it is not an effect related to the race.

I could easily see someone making the arguement that if it says orc in it somewhere that it is related to being an orc. Which would make sense.


This is less cut and dried since ina specifically improves a natural weapon and so it qualifies no matter what at that point.

But it is less clear when you are talking about what 'related to race' means. Does it mean things that only interact with it such as your orc blood being stronger, or does it mean anytime it asks for an orc do you get to be an orc.

I would go with anytime something talks about benefit/detriment to an orc that the halforc would qualify because of his orcish blood.

 

[Scion]

For the purpose of what being in the bar grants, I'm considered a member. But for the purpose of gaining entry to the bar, I'm not.

In other words, for the comparison with ina, you are currently missing the +4 BAB requirement so even though you qualify as having a natural weapon you still cant pick it up yet. But if you could somehow bypass the +4 BAB requirement you would be home free.

 

[Artoomis]

Funny, I come up with a different conclusion. The poll (as I write this) stands at:

No, not per the Rules as Wriiten (RAW). 29
Yes, per the RAW. 71
Yes, because of the Sage's recent ruling. 33
No, but I'll allow it in my games. 16
Yes, but I'll disallow it in my games. 6

To me, the 33 are people that would have voted No, except that the Sage has come out and said that it is okay, otherwise they just would have polled 'Yes, per the RAW'.

...

You forget that folks can vote for more than one thing and the total voters was 120. 120 - (29+71) = 120 - 100 leaving only 20 votes for "Yes" or "No" unaccounted for.

That means, at most, 49 folks would have voted "No" had everone voted "Yes" or "No." A clear majority for "Yes," (71) for whatever that's worth.

Does that make sense now?

 

[Artoomis]

Because the two are not intrinsically linked.

Let's say there's a bar. You're only allowed in if you're a member, or a guest of a member. Drinks are free for members, and cost a dollar for guests.

I have a card that says that for the purpose of obtaining drinks, I am considered a member.

Once I'm inside the bar, I don't have to pay for my drinks. But I can't actually get into the bar by myself - I can only get in as the guest of a member.

For the purpose of what being in the bar grants, I'm considered a member. But for the purpose of gaining entry to the bar, I'm not.

-Hyp.

So close, but wrong analogy.

The right analogy is if you are considered a member of a bar if the bar grants benefits to you. If the bar does not give members benefits, then you are not considered a member of that bar - not that it really matters to you.

Essentially, you are given a free membership. This is quite similar - essentially, the monk is given a "natural weapon" without the drawbacks that having a natural weapon might bring - no iterative attacks for high level, etc.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would go with anytime something talks about benefit/detriment to an orc that the halforc would qualify because of his orcish blood.

So why does one feat consider 'Orc' and 'Half-Orc' to be separate prerequisites? If Orc Blood allows half-orcs to satisfy a prerequisite of 'Orc', then why the inconsistency?

-Hyp.