Human Monks can take Improved Natural Attack?

[FireLance]

It's the dwarven thrower which is bestowing the extra benefits. It is the source of the effects, but what the effect is varies according to the nature of the wielder. I think of prerequisites as being for things which are non-actual until a character selects them; feats and levels, mostly.

I think that may be another important difference in the way we look at the issue. The way I see it, even if the feats and classes are themselves non-actual, the prerequisites are, and have a definite effect, namely, the effect of allowing or denying a character to take the feat or prestige class. So, to continue the doorman analogy, the doorman is himself an effect which should be bypassed by a "I am a member for the purpose of all effects" card.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. But you know, if the two were meant to be the same point, what is the example doing between the two sentences? Shouldn't examples follow the complete statement of an idea? The fact that there is an illustrative example separating them suggests that the two points are separate.

I see it as a continuation or further elaboration of the example. So, the complete statement of the idea is "for all effects related to race, a stoneblessed is considered a member of the race to which she is bonded", and what follows are the examples and elaborations of what this means.

Except the wording of many prerequisites is oddly inconsistent if this is true. I agree it is a more straightforward interpretation of the rules, but the exceptions that have been pointed out leave me unconvinced that this is what the designers and editors are actually implementing. I don't have many of the books, though, and I have to rely on what people tell me is in them. It may be that the inconsistencies with elves/half-elves and orcs/half-orcs is due to rules gaffes by some of the designers, compounded with some editing mistakes. But it might also mean that the rules were written in a misleading manner to suggest that prerequisites count as effects. Either way, something was written down poorly, and the RAW won't tell which something.

No, it doesn't come out and say it explicitly, or we wouldn't have had this very long thread (and two others). However, I and several others have been attempting to creatively interpret the rules to show what we want them to say. Whoever of us has been most convincing is up to you, the gentle reader.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If a feat is an effect, surely it is not an effect until you take it.

Huh. Now, there's something I hadn't actually considered.

A prepared spell is not an effect, and has no effect. The wording used for the end of the casting time of a spell, in fact, is 'when the spell comes into effect'. Until it is cast, it is not an effect; it is merely a potential effect.

Similarly, if one chooses to consider a feat an effect - whether from the Improved Spell Resistance prerequisites, or some hypothetical harder evidence - that definition only applies to a feat that has been taken. A feat that has not been taken is not an effect; it's merely a description of something that might eventually become an effect if someone takes it.

Huh.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The way I see it, even if the feats and classes are themselves non-actual, the prerequisites are, and have a definite effect, namely, the effect of allowing or denying a character to take the feat or prestige class.

Ick.

That's... pretty tortured wording.

And even if - eek - even if we allow that prerequisites are effects that have the effect of permitting an effect, if brings us back to Races of Faerun...

If a prerequisite is an effect, then a prerequisite of 'Orc' is an 'effect related to race', which means a half-orc qualifies for that prerequisite by virtue of Orc Blood...

... so the distinction between prerequisites of 'Orc' and 'Orc or Half-Orc' raises its head once more...

-Hyp.

 

[Borlon]

gentle reader

A fan of Miss Manners, perchance? As am I. For a thread to go on so long and contentiously without needing to be closed requires a good deal of etiquette, I think.

I think that may be another important difference in the way we look at the issue. The way I see it, even if the feats and classes are themselves non-actual, the prerequisites are, and have a definite effect, namely, the effect of allowing or denying a character to take the feat or prestige class. So, to continue the doorman analogy, the doorman is himself an effect which should be bypassed by a "I am a member for the purpose of all effects" card.

If a non-actual feat or prestige class can have effects, then what prevents a character from taking a feat or class whose prerequisites can be met only by effects of that feat or class?

Let's talk about that monk again. Say he wants to start a Natural Weapons Club. He goes to the zoning commission to get permission. They tell him "Sorry, you have to already be a member of a Natural Weapons Club before you can start a new one."

The monk replies "But if I start one, I'll be its first member. My NWE card will see to that. Doesn't that count?"

What would the zoning commission say?

"Starting the club" is analogous with taking the INA feat. "Being a member already" means already having a natural weapon. If the monk is allowed to get the feat his unarmed attacks will count as natural weapons for the purpose of the feat; if he starts the club, he'll be a member of a natural weapons club. But my argument is that this alone won't qualify him to start the club. Until the club actually exists, the criterion of being a member won't be satisfied.

I don't think it is a catch-22. It just means that he has to satisfy the natural weapon requirement some other way.

 

[Artoomis]

Ick.

That's... pretty tortured wording.

And even if - eek - even if we allow that prerequisites are effects that have the effect of permitting an effect, if brings us back to Races of Faerun...

If a prerequisite is an effect, then a prerequisite of 'Orc' is an 'effect related to race', which means a half-orc qualifies for that prerequisite by virtue of Orc Blood...

... so the distinction between prerequisites of 'Orc' and 'Orc or Half-Orc' raises its head once more...

-Hyp.

If there was truly a distiction then what would be the real advantage of having Orc Blood be?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If there was truly a distiction then what would be the real advantage of having Orc Blood be?

The ability to use orc-only magic items. The ability to benefit from spells have special effects for orcs. And so on.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Lets look at the Ranger for a second- they are treated as having certain feats even if they don't qualify (like TWF or Rapid Shot). They can take feats that have those feats as prerequisites. However, they only benefit from those "virtual feats" if they meet the requirement of wearing nothing more than light armor. This class feature can negate a whole chain of feats if the guy dons a breastplate.

The Monk, in contrast, has unarmed attacks that are considered "both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapons" for spells and effects- no other condition negates this. This ability is ALWAYS in effect.

As I have pointed out, at least one other class, the Kensai PrCl from Complete Warrior, explicitly calls the fist a natural weapon.

In fact, the text of the 3.5 version of Magic Fang does as well:

PHB p250
"Magic Fang gives one natural weapon...The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite or other natural weapon."

(emphasis mine)

Clearly, the fist is considered a natural weapon, ESPECIALLY if its the fist of a Monk or Kensai.

IMHO, end of story.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Clearly, the fist is considered a natural weapon, ESPECIALLY if its the fist of a Monk or Kensai.

IMHO, end of story.

So, then, in your opinion, clearly the monk cannot make iterative attacks with his unarmed strike (fist)? Though, he could with, say, unarmed strike (headbutt) or unarmed strike (kick), etc.

This line of reasoning has already been handled and despite any wording in the Kensai PrC to the contrary (I don't have the book so I cannot comment), an unarmed strike is not a natural weapon.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So, then, in your opinion, clearly the monk cannot make iterative attacks with his unarmed strike (fist)? Though, he could with, say, unarmed strike (headbutt) or unarmed strike (kick), etc.

The class gives the monk the ability to make iterative attacks with their unarmed strikes, and explicitly states that, as far as the rules are concerned, there is no distinction between the monk's fists and other appendages & limbs:

PHB p41
A monk's attacks may be with either fist interchangeably, or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full.

This line of reasoning has already been handled...

Obviously not to my satisfaction.

As I pointed out, there are at least 2 other sources that (RAW) refer to fists as natural weapons- Magic Fang and the Kensai. I mean, not only does the Monk section explicitly say that it qualifies for Magic Fang, Magic Fang explicitly says that a fist is a natural weapon.

For me to accept that the description of the Monk's unarmed attacks somehow makes them NOT natural weapons would require a discussion of how those other 2 sources are incorrect in their descriptions of fists as natural weapons.

For your benefit, I re-post:

Complete Warrior, p51
Imbuing Natural Weapons The process for imbuing a kensai's natural weapons (such as his fists) is the same as for a manufactured weapon...For example, a human kensai who has Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) may turn his fists into signature weapons...A kensai who imbues a particular kind of natural weapon must imbue all his natural weapons of that type (so a human kensai with two fists must imbue both fists)...

and:

PHB p250
"Magic Fang gives one natural weapon...The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite or other natural weapon."

The Kensai quote is in a section entitled Imbuing Natural Weapons AND uses a human as the example in particular. Meanwhile, the spell explicitly categorizes the fist as one of a bunch of different kinds of natural weapons.

Where is my misunderstanding?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The class gives the monk the ability to make iterative attacks with their unarmed strikes...

So if we have a fighter (not a monk) with a longsword, does he make his unarmed strike as an offhand attack, or as a secondary natural attack?

Note that the rules for Two-Weapon Fighting state "If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)"

If an unarmed strike is a natural weapon, why is it referred to in the rules for Two-Weapon Fighting, which are not used by natural weapons?

If we have a fighter (not a monk) without a longsword, can he make iterative attacks with his unarmed strike?

-Hyp.