D&D (2024) Hunter's Mark, Hex, and the illusive balance

[Xeviat]

Hunter's Mark and Hex are the hot topics of this week due to the new horror subclasses UA having Ranger and Warlock subclasses that heavily use these spells in subclass features. People keep asking if removing concentration from these spells would be the fix, but I think more needs to be done.

Lets compare Hunters Mark/Hex to another class ability in spell form: Divine Smite. Divine smite is a bonus action to tack on 1d8 + 1d8/spell level damage on a hit (with added potential +1d8 against undead and fiends, and an added doubling for crit fishers). It takes an average of 2.57 hits with Hunter's Mark/Hex to equal smite's typical damage, so it's better with 3 hits and weaker with 2 hits.

But since Hunter's Mark/Hex last an hour with concentration, and longer with higher level spells, they can add significantly more damage. But, keeping up a Hex for the whole day locks you out of other concentration spells. On top of that, most smites don't have concentration anymore.

So how could we balance these while staying in 5.24's "everything is a spell" structure? I think I've glimpsed the solution, but I want to know how y'all feel. This takes some ideas from the One D&D playtest version of these spells and takes them a little further. So here's my version of Hex and Hunter's Mark:

HEX
1st-Level Enchantment Spell (Warlock)
(why is this enchantment and not necromancy? Bestow curse is necromancy...)
Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S, M (the petrified eye of a newt)
Duration: 1 hour
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target the first time you hit it with an attack roll on any turn. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell
using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the spell's duration changes to 8 hours, and the extra damage increases to 2d6. When you use a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the spell's duration changes to 24 hours, and the extra damage increases to 3d6.

HUNTER’S MARK
1st-Level Divination Spell (Ranger)
Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V
Duration: 1 hour
You choose one creature you can see within
range and magically mark it as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target the first time you hit it with an attack roll on any turn. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell
using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the spell's duration changes to 8 hours, and the extra damage increases to 2d6. When you use a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the spell's duration changes to 24 hours, and the extra damage increases to 3d6.

These versions have 4 fundamental differences, and I think all three of these improve them in feel and gameplay.

1. No concentration. This means they only compete with other spells through costing a spell slots, just like Divine Smite.
2. The damage is once per round. This reduces the gap between standard and optimal builds, and makes it easier to balance with Two-Weapon Fighting and other options. Interestingly, as you gain more attacks, your chance of getting the damage each round goes up (1 attack at 65% becomes two attacks for 87.75%, 3 is 98.5%, and 4 is 99.8%).
3. The damage scales with spell higher level spell slots, just like Divine Smite. Interestingly, 2d8 to 1d6 is 2.57 hits; 4d8 for a 3rd level smite to 2d6 is still 2.57, and 6d8 for a 5th level smite to 3d6 is still 2.57. It's almost like someone did math!
4. You can no longer recast it on different targets when the target dies.

This means Hex and Hunter's Mark will be spells you will wait to use on bigger threats, ones you think have a lot of HP and will take a while to bring down. If combat goes to 3 rounds, they're better than smite. It also means the secondary effect gains some more importance, or at least is highlighted a bit, as no concentration means you might tag someone with Hunter's Mark just to follow them.

But since the target dying and the spell ending prematurely can create some weird actions at the table (like the ranger or warlock not wanting the other party members to attack their target so they can maximize their damage gained), getting a benny when the target drops to 0 HP would be good.

Warlocks can get back their pact boon from 4E (the Fiend Warlock already has it kind of). Each patron would grant a different benefit when you reduce a hexed target to 0 HP, but this would feel better for a class ability version so you aren't so limited in its use.

Rangers could get something too, like Heroic Advantage for completing a hunt? This is where I begin to question the idea.

Alternatively, both could be simplified by having the damage bonus apply once. You Hex or Hunter's Mark the target, it suffers disadvantage on ability checks with one ability or you gain advantage on Wisdom (Perception or Survival) checks to notice or track them, and then you gain +2d8 damage the first time you hit them with an attack roll. Boom. Damage. That could feel like a Hunter's Mark: you line up your shot and bang. But I think I like the extra damage once per round more, as it does give it its own niche of bei
ng great against solos.

What do you think?

 

[Tessarael]

I think nerfing the damage to once/turn for the 1st level spell slot is a mistake from a damage output balance perspective. At least for a single-classed Warlock build that I have played through from character level 1 to 9, Hex works fine as is. I agree that the concentration mechanic is a little funky, but it is a valid trade-off for the extra damage vs. using other concentration spells.

 

[billd91]

But since the target dying and the spell ending prematurely can create some weird actions at the table (like the ranger or warlock not wanting the other party members to attack their target so they can maximize their damage gained),

Do players really care about this, in your experience? Should they?

 

[Horwath]

But since the target dying and the spell ending prematurely can create some weird actions at the table (like the ranger or warlock not wanting the other party members to attack their target so they can maximize their damage gained), getting a benny when the target drops to 0 HP would be good.

just say that both spells last for full duration, always.
and you can pick new target with Bonus action.

 

[Selas]

You realize that this very concept was already playtested for the PHB UA and was rejected in the surveys. The reason it keeps getting rejected is because it offers free stacking damage at barely any cost, whether it's applied once or for each attack. Not only that, but you can easily get the spell through a dip or a feat and suffer little to no setback since it's a 1st level spell.

The only plausible solution for this problem is either a class feature--or for Warlocks--an invocation that removes concentration at a higher level.

 

[Xeviat]

I think nerfing the damage to once/turn for the 1st level spell slot is a mistake from a damage output balance perspective. At least for a single-classed Warlock build that I have played through from character level 1 to 9, Hex works fine as is. I agree that the concentration mechanic is a little funky, but it is a valid trade-off for the extra damage vs. using other concentration spells.

But it's not a nerf, it's actually a boost for the EB warlock.

Level 1-4 you're getting +1d6 damage if you hit with your 1 EB, same as before.
Level 5-8, Hex becomes +2d6 damage if you hit with 1 of your 2 EBs, so instead of +2d6 at 65% it's +2d6 at 87.75%
Level 9-10, Hex becomes +3d6 damage if you hit with 1 of your 2 EBs, so instead of +2d6 at 65% it's +3d6 at 87.75%
Level 11-16, it's +3d6 at 65% (each +1d6 for 3 EBs), while mine is +3d6 at 98.5%
Level 17-20, standard is +4d6 at 65%, mine is +3d6 at 99.8% (standard is +9.1 damage, mine is +10.48)

 

[Xeviat]

Do players really care about this, in your experience? Should they?

They shouldn't, but sometimes players get upset at "kill stealing", or at the very least functionally removing the value of their last action. I've seen it happen enough to be cognizant of situations where the rules set it up.

 

[Xeviat]

You realize that this very concept was already playtested for the PHB UA and was rejected in the surveys. The reason it keeps getting rejected is because it offers free stacking damage at barely any cost, whether it's applied once or for each attack. Not only that, but you can easily get the spell through a dip or a feat and suffer little to no setback since it's a 1st level spell.

The only plausible solution for this problem is either a class feature--or for Warlocks--an invocation that removes concentration at a higher level.

You realize that "You realize" is a pretty rude way to start a reply, it immediately puts me on the defensive. I was there, Gandalf. I loved seeing the change back during the playtests and tried it out in my game.

The bonus action and the spell slot are still the cost. Paladin can already stack Divine Favor and Smites and I don't hear that being a problem (probably because paladins don't regularly rock 4-5 attacks a round). Everyone doesn't dip Paladin to get Divine Smite, which has the same bonus action and spell slot cost. Smite spells are all over various spell lists. I'm also not as concerned about level dips in my games, as my players don't really do them.

Personally, I'd rather have Hex, Hunter's Mark, and Smite all be class features for identity protection. But I haven't been able to figure out a way of tying balancing them against Smite's damage without turning them into smites.

 

[Minigiant]

I'll say what I say on Reddit and get downvoted for over and over again.

There is no fixing either of these spells in fifth edition because the community demands backwards compatibility.

And since these spells are spells of those levels in the earlier versions of them, you can't unspell them, change their nature, nor nerf then and get approval by a plurality of fans.

I might change my term "The Ranger Curse" to "The Ranlock Curse"

 

[Stormonu]

I'm trying out a system where I gave the stock fighter and ranger Superiority dice (Fighter starts with 1d6, gets up to 6d6 at 17th - Ranger starts with 3d8 superiority dice, goes up to 5d12 by 18th level). Rangers can get special maneuvers themed towards certain creatures (such as giants), but the maneuvers are still generally useful to others.

Here's a handful of the Ranger maneuvers

Spoiler

Anchor​

As a bonus action, if you have an unspent Superiority die, when you hit a creature you anchor it to the current plane. The creature must make a save against your maneuver DC or it cannot teleport or plane shift until the start of your next turn. You can expend the Superiority die to add twice your Superiority die result to the damage inflicted.

Dragon Slayer​

As a bonus action, if you have an unspent Superiority die, the target cannot use its breath weapon until the start of your next turn. If the creature has the dragon type, you can expend a Superiority die to add twice your Superiority die result to the damage inflicted.

Earthbind​

As a bonus action, if you have an unspent Superiority die, when you hit a creature that can Fly, if it fails a save against your maneuver DC, it cannot fly until the start of your next turn. you can expend the Superiority die to make the creature take twice your Superiority die in additional damage and loses the ability to fly temporarily. If the creature was in flight and the save was failed, it falls and takes falling damage.

Element Resistance​

As a bonus action, expend a Superiority die and choose a damage type (acid, bludgeoning, cold, fire, lightning, poison, thunder). You gain Damage Resistance to the chosen damage type for 10 minutes. At 11th level, this ability lasts for 1 hour.

Fiend Breaker​

As a bonus action, if you have an unspent Superiority die, you ignore any Damage Resistance the creature has and treat any Damage Immunity as Damage Resistance. If the target is an aberration, fiend or celestial, you can expend the Superiority die to add twice your Superiority die result to the damage inflicted.

Ghost Hunter​

As a bonus action, if you have an unspent Superiority die, the target loses the ability to use incorporeal movement until the start of your next turn. You can expend the Superiority die and add twice your Superiority die result to the damage inflicted.

Unfortunately, I don't have a fix/answer for Hex for Warlock, and in the campaign I recently played I didn't even need the spell/ability.