Hydra Combat Reflexes question

[Scion]

How many hit points over forty? Unless it's 45, your math is off. With a 20 AC, he'll be unconscious after the hydra's second action. (15 (AoO)+15 (normal attack) +15 (normal attack)=45).

Each time I have said the same thing, but I'll say it again. I counted the marshal ability even from the first. Sure, maybe it isnt completely fair, but it is so hard to seperate group from nongroup. Plus, it has been such an integral part of keeping people alive that I just cant help but add it in, it saved many npc's lives, and kept several party members from being poisoned to death.

In any event, it appears that your "modified" standard array is pretty dramatically modified if your party fighter has significantly more than 40 hit points and a 19 strength.

Lets see, even without con bonus we are looking at 10 + 3d10, rolling 'pretty well' in this instance put him at 34, 14 con puts him at 42. 42 is 40+ strangely. With the marshal ability that gets extended by 'at least' 3 points. Enough to keep him going.

*more stuff about hp*

It is standard array with some very slight modifications. Effectively it has wound up so far by being an extra +1 point of stat to place.

I could list the whole stats for the guy, but it isnt very important. He is effectively just a tank character for the party, he doesnt have the skills or ability to do anything else. That is ok though, he enjoys his job.

*more about damage*

Good analysis, I suppose the specifics of the character would help out a bit, but I wouldnt want to derail the thread more. For some reason the fast healing kept escaping me. With fast healing 5 there is no problem, with fast healing 15 he will need some help.

With an AC of 20 (can be higher easily actually, but we are still low level so the buffs are spread around a bit more) and 40+ hp he can stand up there and take quite a bit (counting on DR).

But then, chances are also very good he'll be useing a few tactics here and there, and his actual average damage per round against ac 15 would be something like 22 or so (depending on power attack, it fluctuates) but that is without taking into account crits.

The barkskin would help as would Aid but Shield of Faith would help more than Aid.

Sure, it might, but I was only going by what people normally have prepared. They dont always go for the most powerful options available.

Um. No it doesn't. The hydra's still going to be there by round 3 whether or not the rogue hits. If the fighter does 20 points of damage per hit and hits in rounds one and 2, by the end of round 2, the hydra will still have 45 hit points left (fast healing 15 is nice). If the rogue does 20 points of damage, the hydra will still be able to take another hit from the fighter. And if the fighter misses, he'll basically have to start back from the beginning.

Once we bring the full party into it then things just go wacky The druid will probably wind up casting snakes swiftness, legions.

But still, the extra +2 to hit for the melee brute gives him a nice little boost for damage. The rogue can take a nice chunk out of the beast (twf is nice for the rogue), doing 20 is a nice round number though.

So the melee brute gets his full attack in, the rogue gets his in, and between the two of them, assuming no crits at all, the hydra is nearly dead (22 + 20 = 42, 55 - 42 = 13). It then fast heals up quite a bit (assuming that the druid, and cleric do nothing) bringing it back up to 28, either takes a chunk out of the fighter or the rogue, and then pretty much no matter how you look at it the hydra is now dead.

Hydra, in this case, got in at best 2 sets of 5 attacks. Did some decent damage, and this is pretty much a worst case scenario for the actual party. If we had an arcane caster then ray of enfeeblement would have neutered the hydra. If the druid had cast entangle and the rest of the party had lobbed flaming death it would've been even meaner for the hydra.

In any event, he is a mean beasty no doubts! But it really seems like the big aoo barage is merely his combat trick. After all, how many times would the large number of aoo's come in handy otherwise? I have never seen more than 2 provoked for any particular opponent in one round, ever.

So, with the straight melee brute in the party (taking into account the much higher fast healing than I had looked over for some reason) he will need some major luck, or some fairly minor buffing to be able to pull it off (a bulls str + a couple of other low level spells will make the hydra only hit on a 20, and the brutes damage will go over 30 in a given round). We havent ever buffed him like that before.. maybe I should suggest this to the dm, it would be an interesting experience

As for ruling in party favor, definately. They have more people, more actions, and more options. They can do a number of things which will effectively neuter this beast, even at such a low level as we are talking. The brute in the party is an unfortunate example of course, but then I didnt expect to take any heat over it. He is just a normal guy with some interesting choices, and listing it as an example just shouldnt be that big of a deal. Especially low in the 'idiotic reprisal' camp that one person thought.

If a 4th level party cant figure out some way to take out this guy without losing someone then they deserve what they get. Some parties (such as the one I am in) will probably wind up using up some hp from the brute, a couple of first level spells, and a couple of rounds of manuevering (I just love that entangle! It takes him 2 rounds just to get out..lol.. assuming that as long as 'any' part of him is in he is effected.

 

[Scion]

What's wrong with Spring Attack?

<edit - stupid idea given Sundering is a standard action... or is it.........>

Ask hypersmurf, it has been running around so much that I dont even know what it may or may not be according to which particular official and semiofficial...

Still, even with spring attack, the hydra can charge and make a full attack

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ask hypersmurf, it has been running around so much that I dont even know what it may or may not be according to which particular official and semiofficial...

It's why I refer to "FAQ Sunder" and "Core Rules Sunder".

The PHB lists Sunder as a standard action.

The FAQ says it lists Sunder as a standard action because it provokes an AoO, like Trip, Grapple, and Disarm (none of which are listed as standard actions, all of which carry a footnote which states they can be used in various situations when one can not make a standard action), and that it should therefore be considered the same as Trip, Grapple, and Disarm.

The... logic of the FAQ answer escapes me completely. But just check with your DM.

Now, I'd like to see a hydra with Stand Still, Hold the Line, Improved Trip, Elusive Target, and Karmic Strike. But that's just me being mean

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Interesting. I was just reading the PHB description of Sunder and it says that sundering is an attack action in the text. So it sounds like this is a case of text vs table in the core rules not a case of core rules vs. FAQ.

It's why I refer to "FAQ Sunder" and "Core Rules Sunder".

The PHB lists Sunder as a standard action.

The FAQ says it lists Sunder as a standard action because it provokes an AoO, like Trip, Grapple, and Disarm (none of which are listed as standard actions, all of which carry a footnote which states they can be used in various situations when one can not make a standard action), and that it should therefore be considered the same as Trip, Grapple, and Disarm.

The... logic of the FAQ answer escapes me completely. But just check with your DM.

Now, I'd like to see a hydra with Stand Still, Hold the Line, Improved Trip, Elusive Target, and Karmic Strike. But that's just me being mean

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't doubt that a 4th level party can figure out a way to take out a hydra without anyone dying as long as they're not particularly unlucky. However, I do think that it can be reasonably expected to take up more than 20% of the party's resources (which is what a CR 4 creature is supposed to do). Given that the your semi-iconic party (I'll presume brute, rogue, druid, Marshal, cleric since that seems to be the case) has about seven secound level spells and 9 first level spells between them, the spells you mentioned--Aid, Barkskin, Snake's Swiftness--legion's (is that a 2nd level spell--I thought mass spells were generally higher than that) represent nearly half of their top drawer spells. If we assume that the hydra dealt 30-40 points of damage (pretty reasonable if we give it two attacks and an AoO), that's four or five first level spells before he's cured.

So in your somewhat optimistic scenario, you used up just under 50% of the party's renewable resources. That's more than the 20% a CR 4 creature is supposed to take up.

And we should keep in mind that you appear to have a rather powerful party in place. More standard parties will face more risks.

If a 4th level party cant figure out some way to take out this guy without losing someone then they deserve what they get. Some parties (such as the one I am in) will probably wind up using up some hp from the brute, a couple of first level spells, and a couple of rounds of manuevering (I just love that entangle! It takes him 2 rounds just to get out..lol.. assuming that as long as 'any' part of him is in he is effected.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Interesting. I was just reading the PHB description of Sunder and it says that sundering is an attack action in the text.

Well, without getting into the debate again (since it's been the subject of numerous threads), the text says you can use a melee attack to damage a weapon or shield.

The text describes what you can do if you are taking the Sunder action; the table defines the Sunder action as a standard action. So, when taking the Sunder standard action, you can use a melee attack to damage a weapon or shield.

If you aren't taking the Sunder standard action, using a melee attack to damage a weapon or shield is not an option.

Even if you are taking the Sunder standard action, using a ranged attack to damage a weapon or shield is not an option (without the appropriate CW feat).

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

And we should keep in mind that you appear to have a rather powerful party in place. More standard parties will face more risks.

More standard parties would have a wizard, who could cast ray of enfeeblement which nearly ends the encounter

Like I said though, different parties will give up different things. The party I listed above (useing, at most 2 1st and 1 2nd level spells, and that is just to finish the hydra before he gets to fast heal, probably took around 20 - 30 points of damage (less if aid was cast, less if barkskin was cast, less if the brute gets a crit). Not terribly unreasonable. The druid, marshal, and cleric havent even been touched at all, and they are all reasonable combatants. (well, except for the marshal.. he is diplomacy and his auras all the way, nothing else useful but it is more than enough to make people like him)

But, if the party was more ranged oriented, and had some knowledge amongst them, then chances of taking 0 damage and only having to 'pay' a bunch of arrows at worst.. or a more spellcasting group unloading a few handy spells (sleep.. how you are missed in the new edition.. your new cousin is worthless).

Still, I think the point has been made. He is a rough guy in melee, but if you can keep out of that he is a pushover. Much like the giant scorpian. He is incredible in melee for his CR, but he has such gaping weaknesses that his CR just cant be raised.

 

[naloomi]

This begs a rather simple question...

If all 8 heads of an eight-headed hydra gets AoO's, does the Tumble DC increase by 2 for each head?

Naloomi