Hydras, 3d6 breath per head & other ?s

[green slime]

Nope, it's 'the hydra can use all its heads to make attacks of opportunity'.

Except, reading it like you are, Pinotage, makes the sentance entirely trivial.

If a fighter is standing around with a weapon in either hand, and someone moves past him provoking an AoO.... He can choose to attack with the weapon in his left hand, or in his right. According to you:

"He can use all his weapons to make attacks of opportunity"

Which he can't. He can use one or the other. But not all. A hydra, on the other hand, can.

 

[Pinotage]

Except, reading it like you are, Pinotage, makes the sentance entirely trivial.

If a fighter is standing around with a weapon in either hand, and someone moves past him provoking an AoO.... He can choose to attack with the weapon in his left hand, or in his right. According to you:

"He can use all his weapons to make attacks of opportunity"

Which he can't. He can use one or the other. But not all. A hydra, on the other hand, can.

Perhaps the sentence was meant to be trivial?

I don't believe that's what I was advocating. I'm saying that it can make one attack per opportunity with any of its heads, but it can take N opportunities to make attacks.

What you've written down as:

He can use all his weapons for (to make - I wrote that in error, BTW) attacks of opportunity

is exactly what the SRD says.

I agree he can only make one attack per opportunity, but if he has combat reflexes he can take 1 + Dex mod opportunities. The hydra's combat reflexes by my interpretation is a special case where it can use all its heads despite having only a 12 Dex, i.e. its combat reflexes allows it to make N attacks rather than 2, but still only one attack per opportunity. It looks like you're agreeing with me!

Pinotage

 

[mikebr99]

The hydra's combat reflexes by my interpretation is a special case where it can use all its heads despite having only a 12 Dex, i.e. its combat reflexes allows it to make N attacks rather than 2, but still only one attack per opportunity. It looks like you're agreeing with me!

Pinotage

Then why give the Hydra combat reflexes? If it worked your way, it would not have the feat, just the racial note at the end.

Mike

 

[Scion]

As we discussed, your experiences are not representative of the broad spectrum of D&D players or of the iconic level of balance.

When did we discuss such a thing?

Anyway though, broad spectrum? That has yet to be proven as well. Some people have certain experiences, others have slightly different ones.

Really basilisk, a few lines of that post were pretty much made up whole cloth and out of the blue for this conversation.

I have seen the hydra in battle, and have been involved in topics where fighting one was discussed. Some people believe it is too low by a great deal (some have even said things like the CR 5 actually being something like CR 9), whereas others feel it is merely powerful for where it is, and others feel it is just fine.

It is a melee brute indeed. But it has a very weak ac, no ranged attacks, no ability to fly, moves very slowly, is very large, has a very low str for its size, its attack bonus is fairly low, any one attack doesnt do much damage, has a pitiful will save, and it has a severe lack of intelligence.

It has a good attack routine (lots of attacks), good aoo's (powerful), a very interesting charge, and fast healing. This makes it an incredibly brute of a creature. However, with a bit of strategy and planning (and since it hides very poorly I would expect it to never get the jump on anyone) it should be able to be taken out without a huge amount of difficulty.

The low cr ones are rough battles for anyone who tries to face it directly on its turf, but not so bad when put off of its footing. The higher cr ones are just jokes waiting to happen

That is why I feel that the big aoo is just a perk of what it is, because it is one of its few really offensive measures. Also, it falls into line with how its charges work.

Sure, for some parties it will be deadly, but then for other parties it will be a cake walk. That is with the standard array useing party, let alone anyone with a real point buy (as 4d6 method averages much higher).

 

[Pinotage]

Then why give the Hydra combat reflexes? If it worked your way, it would not have the feat, just the racial note at the end.

Mike

Because the hydra's ability to take more attacks of opportunity in a round than its dexterity would allow is a special case of the combat reflexes feat. No point inventing a new ability when you can extend another.

 

[strongbow]

Good discussion people. I would like to revisit a point that has not been discussed much except at the beginning: the 3d6 breath weapon. I have a very hard time believing that you roll a Reflex save and take damage seperately from each head. A 12 headed hydra would force a party to make 48 saves. I don't think this is what the designers intended at all. It makes more sense to make one save than to roll multiple saves. As has been mentioned, Resist Elements would totally negate the damage at higher caster level, and mitigate almost all of it at a value of 10. Aside from damage negation, I don't think they would have nerfed the Lernean (sp?) Hydra from 3.0 and then made the breath weapon on a per head basis.

So what makes the most sense to me is that each head has a 1d4 round refresh. Most hydras will use all their heads to breathe at once, but a more intelligent hydra or a hydra with Quicken Breath Weapon or other assorted nastiness might use a breath weapon and not all at once. If a 12 headed hydra used 7 heads in round one, it would force 1 Reflex save for 21d6. The next round it uses its other 5 for 15d6. A hyrda might not use all its heads because A) the DM gave it Maximize Breath weapon and doesn't want to kill the party, and B) the hydra knows that a lot of fire damage will completely incinerate its meal, so it slacks off and uses a little at a time. (Not to slight those cryohydras)

 

[strongbow]

3.0 DM Hydra Powergaming Tips (TM) to the person still playing 3.0:

Btw, if you are using Lernean (sp?) and 3.0, use the Monster of Legend Template from MM2. Also advance the hydras with the multiheaded template from Savage Species, and not the normal hyrda advancement. A 15 headed hydra is only CR 10, and it has +20 HD and +20 Con. One of my DMs threw two multiheaded, monster of legend 22 headed Lernean cryohyrdas at us and called it ~CR 18. Cr Calc (5 base +2 cryo +6 multiheaded [+5 for 10 heads and +1 for breath weapon] +2 Monster of Legend +1 ad hoc for a "difficult" encounter because each hydra had bitten some of the other hydra's heads off to grow some more heads, +2 for two monsters) The hyrdas heads regenerated each round, and the bodies were immune to damage. Heh. As the hydras were our ~12th encounter in the past 10 minutes, we had a hard time with them on our APL 18 table I assure you.

 

[Scion]

A 12 headed hydra would force a party to make 48 saves.

SRD:
breathe jets of fire 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long


I think it would be very difficult indeed to catch all of the party in each of these blasts Especially if the party is spread out 'at all'.

I suppose you could also give the player the choice, roll once for all that hit you this time, or individually. That way they can either tempt fate (roll once) for a big pay off or big failure, or roll each individually in hopes of going for average negation

 

[strongbow]

True, I am envisioning a cramped boat in the swamp with some pyrohydras, so that the hyrdas could catch the entire party.

Wow, my avatar takes up an obnoxious amount of space. Looks like it'll have to go.

 

[strongbow]

<casts Bump>

Is there a definitive answer on whether the breath weapon is per head or all at once?