hypothetical class balance discussion

[KarinsDad]

I think this is all fairly balanced. Let's look at levels:

At first level, the one fighter will save 10% of the time versus Reflex whereas 90% of the time, the result is the same. Ditto for the fighter with the Will save. If low level spells are 10% Fort, 45% Reflex and 45% Will (there are only a small handful of low level Fort spells), that means that one spell in 22 has its result changed. 21 spells out of 22 are unaffected. This is not game breaking.

At 20th level, this changes to 30% of the time. If high level spells are 20% Fort, 40% Reflex, and 40% Will, that means that one spell in 8 will have its result changed. So, it might help once per day in a 4 encounter per day situation. And of course, this assumes that the fighter does not take a prestige class which is basically unheard of. Compared to prestige class abililities, this is not unbalanced, in fact it's pretty weak.

Hit points will be +2 at level one and +40 at level 20. However, this is only about 20% extra hit points (give or take) each level. That means that this fighter will survive for maybe an extra round or two compared to normal at most levels. Helpful, but not unbalanced. Probably slightly stronger than the other three and used more often, but +1 per level would not be strong enough.

That leaves the skill boost. I think this one would be taken by many players, just because it opens up certain RPing and Prestige Classes easier. Not typically as useful in combat, but it does give the player more options out of combat which I think is nice.

All in all, none of these sound unbalanced and they seem to balance against each other fairly nice except for the hit points which is slightly stronger, but still not overwhelmingly so.

 

[blargney the second]

They're fairly well balanced against each other. Slight edge to the one with good Will saves, and the +2 hp isn't far behind.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

One class has a strong reflex save.
One has a strong will save.
Whereas the other 3 have skill points equal to 2+Int, one class has 4+Int.
One class gains +2 Hp/level, which can exceed the limits of the d10.

To what extent are these classes balanced?

The good Will save and Skill points are comparable if there is a very attractive list of class skills to choose from.

The bonus HPs are too strong.

The good Reflex save is too weak.

 

[KarinsDad]

All of these are stronger than a feat:

Good Reflex is stronger than Lightning Reflexes.
Good Will is stronger than Iron Will.
+2 hp / level is stronger than Improved Toughness.
+2 skills per level is much stronger than Skill Focus.

So, all of them are substantial and probably the equivalent of 2+ feats.

 

[Arkhandus]

One class has a strong reflex save.
One has a strong will save.
Whereas the other 3 have skill points equal to 2+Int, one class has 4+Int.
One class gains +2 Hp/level, which can exceed the limits of the d10.

To what extent are these classes balanced?

The fourth class is strongest. Reflex saves and Will saves will come up less often than hit point damage (and some will actually just be made to avoid some hit point damage). And a save can always fail on a natural 1 (barring unusual supplemental rules material). The fourth class isn't much better, but it is a little better.

The class with higher skill points is probably 2nd best, mildly weaker than the fourth and mildly stronger than the other two. Its benefits are nearly equal to the fourth class' except that skill points are less valuable for combat purposes, and combat ability is the main balancing factor in D&D.

The classes with higher saving throws are pretty much even in ability. Reflex saves are more likely to keep them alive, but Will saves can also save them from paralysis/domination/death sometimes, and protect them from a lot of other nasty effects, which overall balances out reasonably well.


In my own calculations, I figure 1hp/level to be roughly equivalent to 2-1/2 or 3 average feats, or 1 strong feat with high prerequisites (of course, the designers disagree and have Improved Toughness as 1 such feat with no prerequisites. Which is stupid and poorly thought-out, especially since they didn't feel the need to fix Toughness itself).

In my calculations, I consider skill points similarly to hit points in value, just a little bit less valuable; I consider a 1-degree hit die increase to be equivalent to a 2-point-per-level skill point increase (because the average HP from those hit dice will go up by 1, but with a possibility of going up by more like 1-1/2 or 2 points per level), because of the lesser importance of skill points to combat (and if a PC can't survive a tussle, they ain't gonna get the chance to do much else). So I figure 1sp/level is like 2 feats in usefulness; it's a bit weaker at 1st-level, but catches up after a few levels and then exceeds that, so overall, approximately 2 feats in value.

Of course, once again WotC's designers appear to disagree with me on that, but I learned to be highly skeptical of their grasp on balance when 3.5 came out, and nothing from the 3.0 materials contradicted my conclusions about what was probably a reasonable balance in these regards (though a few feats, prcs, and spells here and there were broken, those were broken for different reasons).

I generally consider saves on the basis of Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes/Great Fortitude. So one high save for a class is worth 3 feats more than a weak save (6 feats in total value). Only worth 1 feat in value at 1st-level, but gradually builds up in value (and with the added benefit of stacking, unlike Iron Will for instance, which makes up for the fact that its total value is only very gradually accumulated).

So, by my measures..... Class 4 has approx. 5-1/2 feats worth of advantage. Class 3 has approx. 4. Classes 1 and 2 have approx. 3 feats worth of advantage. So there's my input.

 

[KarinsDad]

So, by my measures..... Class 4 has approx. 5-1/2 feats worth of advantage. Class 3 has approx. 4. Classes 1 and 2 have approx. 3 feats worth of advantage. So there's my input.

The fighter could only get a +6 to Will or Reflex if he stayed in the class for 20 levels which is highly unlikely in DND and if he did, he would be giving up Prestige Class advantages.

So, it is definitely better than Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes, but it is seriously deficient over 3 such feats each. More like 2 feats since it isn't until 8th level that such a fighter could get a +4 advantage there (and not until 10th+ until that advantage is consistently +4 or higher).

 

[Arkhandus]

I'm not quite sure what your point is. And the question wasn't about Fighters etc., it was about some hypothetical classes. The OP hasn't brought class features or the like into the discussion. So we can't just assume they're going to multiclass into a prestige class later on. Y'know, there actually are some people who don't feel an obessive compulsion to enter prestige classes with every single character.

The discussion of class balance does not mean 'how are these balanced by 5th or 10th level, since they're inevitably going to enter prestige classes after that and never return?' Such assumptions cannot be reasonably jumped to; we don't know if the hypothetical classes would be worth sticking with for 20 levels, so we can't just assume they're going to dive into prestige classes ASAP.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'd choose the class with the good Will saves over all of the others. There are simply too many effects which require Will saves that take a fighter effectively out of the game.

Two additional Skill Points and good Reflex saves are pretty weak for a fighter-type.

Two additional hp/level are quite nice - unless house-rules are used when rolling for hit points which result in higher than average hp.

 

[Arkhandus]

Though, if you're getting average HP per level (as you're statistically likely to get through rolling, anyway), +2 HP per level is a 40% increase from the average d10 result of 5 per level. Almost half-again as tough as normal. So on average......+2hp/level is a good deal.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not quite sure what your point is. And the question wasn't about Fighters etc., it was about some hypothetical classes. The OP hasn't brought class features or the like into the discussion.

All four classes have a strong fortitude save and a d10 hit die. They are all designed to be close-range melee fighters.

we don't know if the hypothetical classes would be worth sticking with for 20 levels, so we can't just assume they're going to dive into prestige classes ASAP.

Err, so? The prestige class issue was just a point. A point that the advantage is potentially not worth as much as it might seem on the surface. But it is not the only point.

Even using average advantage for saves over 20 levels, it becomes an average bonus of +3.85 over these levels:

1 +2
2 +3
3 +2
4 +3
5 +3
6 +3
7 +3
8 +4
9 +3
10 +4
11 +4
12 +4
13 +4
14 +5
15 +4
16 +5
17 +5
18 +5
19 +5
20 +6

Over the 20 level lifetime of the character if he stays in that class, the ability gives him an average advantage of less then +4. So, it is more or less equivalent to 2 +2 feats, not 3 +2 feats, even if no prestige class is ever taken.

The bottom line is that I think your 3 feat analysis is too high and just plain wrong.

Do you understand my point now?