D&D 5E Hypothetical Revised PHB: What Subclasses Makes the Cut?

[Peter BOSCO'S]

Disclaimer - Answers may be broader than original question

Ranger - rewrite the basic Ranger to not have spells (and to be a bit more powerful). Include Expertise in Nature or Survival at Tier 3 and in both by Tier 4. Create sub classes that do have spells in a manner similar to Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight. Maybe add in a poultice based Healing ability on short rests, similar to a Bards Song of Rest? "Here, eat these herbs and you'll heal faster."

Wizard - Create new sub classes based on Implement choice. Make Wand Wizards (maybe INT bonus to Initiative) different from Staff Wizards (maybe INT bonus in Temporary Hit Points) different from Book Wizards (maybe faster Ritual Casting?), different from Orb Wizards (maybe roll 1d20 at the start of each day and let it replace other dice rolls, similar, but weaker than, to how Diviners how work?). Eliminate the more boring half of current specializations to make room.

Warlock - Require them all to have a Bond of Flaw (or both) related to their Patron. Otherwise fine as is.

Cleric - Eliminate the entire class, and make them all Warlock sub classes. Require them to have a Bond or Flaw related to their Patron, like other Warlocks. Let some Patrons provide Medium Armor Proficiency, just as some types of Clerics now get Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Druid - Eliminate Circle of the Moon as too powerful (just too much damage soaking with Wild shapes). Replace with another school.

Fighter - Mostly OK as is but Second Wind does not scale well enough. (Maybe it heals Half Proficiency d10's + level, not 1d10 + level?)

Monks - Rename as Brawler to kill any East Asian cultural implications and the confusion with European cloistered religious folk. Rewrite the basic "Brawler" to not have spells or Ki powers that duplicate spells. Create sub classes that do in a manner similar to Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight.

Bard - too powerful. Eliminate full caster abilities, cut to a three-quarters caster that starts with Cantrips only and tops out with 7th level spells. (Maybe steal some design ideas from Artificer?)

Barbarian - Name now politically incorrect. Rename to "Reckless Warrior"
or something similar and add fluff clarifying that they are not all from "barbaric" cultures, they just have anger management issues. Otherwise ok.

Sorcerer - Draconics +3 boost to AC at Level 1 overpowers all other Sorcerer (and maybe Wizard) builds at L1. Let it scale with level instead, maybe equal to half of Proficiency?

Rogue - Let them Sneak Attack with a wider variety of lighter weapons. It's silly to not be able to Sneak Attack with a club for instance. Maybe they can Sneak with any weapon doing a d6 or less at Tier 1, a d8 at Tier 4, and a D10 at Tier 4? (Maybe exclude Unarmed Sneaks to not step on the Brawlers design space?)

Paladin - Building a whole class on Smiting and then only letting them Smite on a 20 is bad design, as it creates a class whose power is too depend on rare dice rolls. Paladins should get the Improved Critical and Superior Critical Champion Fighters do (but maybe not with dual weapon fighting, that might be too many crits).

 

[Aldarc]

The deviates from the OP, but it is sort of a question; the available archetypes aren’t all of similar power, so are we selecting from them as-is, or can they be fixed? I can see a better assassin included, but maybe not as it currently stands.

I suspect that a revised PHB likely would have some degree of subclass revisions/fixes.

 

[Li Shenron]

Disclaimer: This is more of a speculative "what if" thread.

For purpose of the thread's discussion, let's imagine for a second that WotC at some speculative time decides to release a revised 5e PHB. (I'll leave the when and why for you to decide.) WotC decides to take this opportunity to switch out and add subclasses from the available classes from their wider range of materials that they have produced up til now. They include the caveat that at max they will only add one additional subclass per class in the revised 5e PHB to their total number of subclasses. So they may decide, for example, that the wizard will stay at eight subclasses rather than nine (8 + 1).

Which subclasses stay? Which subclasses are switched out, removed, and cut? Which subclasses are switched in? Which subclasses do you think would make the cut in such a hypothetical revised 5e PHB?

Are you asking what you think WotC would do, or what we would do if we were WotC? Given the answers so far, I don't think anyone is interested in the former, so I'll go along with the game and answer the latter.

Generally speaking, I would probably keep all the existing subclasses. The only one I don't like is the Beastmaster, but unlike the vast majority of gamers I do not dislike it because of "balance", I just don't like characters built around controlling a "pet" at all. I can easily tolerate Chain Pact Warlocks and Wizards with a Familiar because they have a lot more going on, besides their critter, but the Beastmaster is a bit too monolithic for me. That said, I would probably rather keep it anyway for those who like it, and incorporate the advanced/improved beasts into the PHB.

As for additional subclasses, this is what I would do, in descending order of importance:

VERY IMPORTANT

Rogue: Swashbuckler. This is seriously the most solid non-PHB subclass ever, both conceptually and mechanically, it should have really been in the PHB since the start. It's perfect for a "Zorro" inspired character, and it is quite an essential option considering how Thief and Assassin have too much a criminal bent (the Thief only by name really, but still it does have an effect) and the Arcane Trickster is almost a multiclass concept.

Sorcerer: Storm. I like all Sorcerers subclasses from XGtE and I could choose any of those. Generally speaking, I think the Sorcerer deserved more than only 2 subclasses in the PHB, particularly because the Chaos Mage is so awkward and requires good DM's care to work in the game, that it leads to most PHB Sorcerer players to use the Draconic bloodline. It's also very easy to imagine lots of other sorcerous archetypes, but if I were limited to 1 only, I'd go with Storm with its elemental theme because it is the easiest both conceptually and mechanically.

Ranger: Horizon Walker. Similar to Sorcerer, with the Beastmaster being a very special case, most PHB Rangers end up as Hunters, so some additions are essential. And again I liked all XGtE subsclasses, so I would pick the one that has the broadest concept and potential. It also emphasizes the key "ranging" concept which is the starting point of the whole class.

SOMEWHAT IMPORTANT

Bard: Glamour. Two subclasses in PHB are a thin choice, even though both of them are actually awesome, but still I'd add a third one to expand the choice. With Lore being focused on knowledge, and Valor on combat, I would look into a subclass that focuses on social interaction. Here I am fairly undecided between Glamour and Whispers, but I would probably go with the first to also allow a player to emphasize the performer/artist side of the Bard class.

Warlock: Celestial. Purely from a roleplaying perspective, the PHB set of subclasses seriously limits the options for a classic no-brainer Good-aligned PC. Yes, you can definitely play a Good-aligned Infernal or GOO Warlock, but as awesome as it sounds, it's not easy for a casual player. So if you like the Warlock class but don't feel like taking on a significant roleplay challenge in shades of grey, you end up always with the Fey Warlock. I would definitely add the Celestial as a second option here.

Cleric: Grave. Because death is a major topic in practically all religions, but the Death domain is very clearly evil-bent, and in fact hidden in the DMG. No other clerical domain published after the PHB seemed important enough to me to have in the game but this one, even though the Cleric already has plenty of subclass options.

Paladin: Redemption. I don't think the Paladin desperately needs more options and the PHB subclasses are all amazing, but I really liked this one as it provides a different take on paladinhood morality, therefore I would see it as a very nice addition to the PHB.

UNIMPORTANT

Fighter: none. There is certainly room for more subclasses in the PHB, but unfortunately when I look at subsclasses released afterward, those I like are too specific, and those which are broader I don't like at all.

Druid: none. Despite having only 2 subclasses in the PHB, the fact that the Circle of the Land is flexible and almost counts as 8 sub-subclasses means I don't see much need for additions, even though some of the subsclasses after the PHB we quite nice.

Barbarian: none. I like all XGtE subclasses but none of them is a must-have. Instead, I would rather add more beast options to the Totem subclass.

Monk: none. Maybe I could consider adding the Kensei as an option for players who don't want to fight unarmed, but I think it's not really necessary given that you can already mostly manage with the PHB rules for Monk weapons. Other subclasses are pretty cool but they tend to be quite a lot specific in concept and I'd rather have broad archetypes in the PHB.

Wizard: none. There could be more than the standard 8 schools of magic, but honestly there has been no Wizard subclass after the PHB I really liked at all.

 

[ph0rk]

I suspect that a revised PHB likely would have some degree of subclass revisions/fixes.

That’s a pretty big deal, then, as it is an opportunity to fix subclasses that are seen as weak, and I could see that as reason to include many of them. Speaking purely hypothetically, then, as if I were to place bets they would change nothing with respect to archetypes:

Boosted versions of the assassin, ek, battlerager, beastmaster, champion, etc.

Fixed dual wielding for some or all rangers; along the lines of non-bonus action offhand attack either at 5 or 11.

There is also probably room for one more not-shiny paladin, if not conquest, a better version of conquest. I’d like to see the oath of Treachery, but that’s been dormant for some time. I’d strive to cover as wide a range as possible, so only one classically-shiny paladin is really necessary. One shiny, one grey, and one dirty is what I’d suggest, to really open options up as wide as possible. Devotion, Conquest (perhaps with tweaks), and Treachery.

artificer will probably make it in, which still strikes me as terribly uninspired and very same-feeling across the subclasses. That base could make the arcane half caster some people seem to want, but not in its present form.

An expanded section (as occurred in many previous editions, either in the PHB or DMG) on custom classes might make it in, too, but this would take more than just a couple pages. Detail on creating subclasses would go here, too.

 

[Azzy]

I think they all should stay. Updated and fixed, mind you. Instead of add one subclass to all the classes, I'd skip some classes (wizard, I'm looking at you) to give other classes more than one additional subclass (like the sorcerer, ranger, barbarian, etc.).

 

[Undrave]

Building a whole class on Smiting and then only letting them Smite on a 20 is bad design, as it creates a class whose power is too depend on rare dice rolls.

??? Paladin can smite on ANY hit, it's just smarter to wait for the 20s...

 

[Krachek]

I have been disappointed to see no alternative for the .frenzy ability in the Tasha guide. So i vote for a revision on that.
aberrant mind sorcerer and favored Soul are better concept that the Wild magic sorcerer.
The samouraï can make an excellent third option for fighter.
War domain seem less adapted to war than Fire or Tempest.
A good generalist option for Wizard would be nice. I’m not a fan of the school specialist as defining feature for the Wizard.
4 elements is a good concept, just need some more love!
Inquisive or scout Rogue are more fit for a core sub class than the assassin who work better for a loner character.

 

[Krachek]

??? Paladin can smite on ANY hit, it's just smarter to wait for the 20s...

I’m not sure of that, smite is of better use when applied when the party need an extra boost of damage cause by surprise, bad rolls, a monster that target weak save on the party that need to be rapidly take down.
applying smite systematically on critical is not the smarter play.

 

[Peter BOSCO'S]

??? Paladin can smite on ANY hit, it's just smarter to wait for the 20s...

They can smite on any hit but that's just a trick to get Paladins to waste their smites. Maximum damage output per day requires that you only use it on a 20.

 

[squibbles]

[...] let's imagine for a second that WotC at some speculative time decides to release a revised 5e PHB. (I'll leave the when and why for you to decide.) WotC decides to take this opportunity to switch out and add subclasses from the available classes from their wider range of materials that they have produced up til now. They include the caveat that at max they will only add one additional subclass per class in the revised 5e PHB to their total number of subclasses. So they may decide, for example, that the wizard will stay at eight subclasses rather than nine (8 + 1).

Which subclasses stay? Which subclasses are switched out, removed, and cut? Which subclasses are switched in? Which subclasses do you think would make the cut in such a hypothetical revised 5e PHB?

Super cool discussion topic, love it.

If I were trying to preserve the spirit of the original PHB with subclasses that both speak to a reasonably broad theme and don't have really boring and/or awful mechanics, I'd choose:

• Barbarian, +1 subclass
  • +Ancestral Guardian--has a great theme and adds something unique to the class
  • Berserker--but they'd need to do something about frenzy
  • Totem Warrior
• Bard, +1 subclass, swap 1 subclass
  • +College of Eloquence--maybe with a small nerf, it's a bit stronger than the others with Unfailing Inspiration
  • College of Lore
  • ~College of Swords--it has more pizazz than Valor and subsumes its theme
• Cleric, swap 1 subclass, there doesn't need to be a nature cleric and a druid--and nature cleric features are meh
  • ~Death Domain--it's broad and thematic without the noodly specifics of grave or arcana, or the powercreep of twilight
  • Knowledge Domain
  • Life Domain
  • Light Domain
  • Tempest Domain
  • Trickery Domain
  • War Domain
• Druid, +1 subclass, swap 1 subclass
  • ~Circle of Dreams, replaces Land as the generic subclass since it strong has support/caster mechanics
  • Circle of the Moon, but balanced according to a power curve that isn't insane
  • +Circle of Stars, because I arbitrarily like it
    • Dreams, Moon, and Stars are a flavorful set of subclass names together
• Fighter, swap 1 subclass
  • Battle Master
  • ~Champion--it'd be called Champion, but have Samurai features instead--it's still simple but not senselessly simple
  • Eldritch Knight
• Monk, +1 subclass
  • Way of the Four Elements--but make it not weak and janky, this is a cool idea that falls flat because of poor mechanics
  • +Way of Mercy--because it's the only well designed monk they've published
  • Way of the Open Hand
  • Way of Shadow--can't be without a ninja subclass
• Paladin, no changes, I personally hate paladins, but their design is very good in 5e and the PHB subclasses cover a ton of territorry
• Ranger, +1 subclass, swap 1 subclass, but yeesh, most of the Tasha's options should replace the base features
  • Beast Master--but using the Tasha's templates
  • +Fey Wanderer--because it has novel and interesting features and a good theme
  • ~Some kind of Hunter/monster slayer hybrid--they both need help; one is just a grab bag of rejected fighter features from the next playtest, the other has a great theme that is poorly executed
• Rogue, +2 subclasses
  • Arcane Trickster
  • Assassin--but with the intrigue and combat features more evenly distributed across levels
  • +Mastermind--great features and great theme
  • +Swashbuckler--does combat rogue very well
  • Thief
• Sorcerer, +1 subclass, swap 2 subclasses
  • +Aberrant Mind--because Tasha's went in a great direction with sorcerers
  • ~Clockwork Soul--take that Wild Magic!
  • ~UA Giant Soul--because it does elemental themes SO much better than Draconic Origin
• Warlock, no subclass changes, but add Pact of the Talisman and replace the weaksauce "cast X with a warlock spell slot" invocations and replace them with the more fun/interesting Xanthar's and Tasha's ones. Warlock is a difficult case--the subclasses in the PHB are all simple and moderately powerful, everything since has either been quite a bit more complicated or been the Hexblade, the black hole around which all other Warlock subclasses orbit
• Wizard, +1 subclass, it's kinda hard to change any of the PHB ones--it's be kinda weird if the Necromancy school just didn't get a subclass because of how poorly done it is
  • Abjuration
  • +Bladesinging--the Tasha's version with a meaningful combat steroid, not the SCAG version
  • Conjuration
  • Divination
  • Enchantment
  • Evocation--but replace potent cantrip with a feature that isn't awful
  • Illusion
  • Necromancy--but completely redone with undead minions obtainable from 2nd level
  • Transmutation--but giving minor alchemy more cowbell

9 new subclasses added in total, 7 subclass swaps--not a lot of changes, all told.