I almost bought an Avalanche Press book

Inzae · Feb 1, 2003

oh my

oh my where to begin

davis

Aloïsius · Feb 1, 2003

So...
Is this obscene ?
http://www.avalanchepress.com/miva/..._Code=AP&Product_Code=0009&Category_Code=gwas

Or this one
http://www.avalanchepress.com/miva/...ode=AP&Product_Code=0205&Category_Code=family

Or this one
http://www.avalanchepress.com/miva/...e_Code=AP&Product_Code=0918&Category_Code=d20

etc.

I understand that one don't want to buy a product with such or such cover, but boycotting the whole company seems indeed exagerated to me. Especially if you create a thread just to say : "I will boycott them because blah-blah"

Did you like the BovD (content, not only cover). If not, did you still buy WotC product, or play D&D ? People tend to take things to seriously...

jgbrowning · Feb 1, 2003

Aloïsius said:
I understand that one don't want to buy a product with such or such cover, but boycotting the whole company seems indeed exagerated to me. Especially if you create a thread just to say : "I will boycott them because blah-blah"

Did you like the BovD (content, not only cover). If not, did you still buy WotC product, or play D&D ? People tend to take things to seriously...

For me its not a matter of obscenity. Its a matter of what i would like to support and not support in the industry.

I'll support books that meet my criteria of "moving the industry forward" and/or my criteria of "helping people have fun." I don't support books that, IMHO, don't do those things. And its not just the single books. I wouldn't buy the few good things (the ones that meet my criteria) from a company that usually fails to meet my criteria, because in the long run im supporting what i dont agree with. (ie a greater % of their profit from my purchase supports things i don't like as opposed to those i do like) I understand that buying only the books that meet my criteria may move the company towards making more books that meet my critieria as opposed to the books that don't, but i dont think, in general, that one persons purchasing power is enough to change a company's decision.

Your definitions of "moving forward" and "having fun" will of course be different than mine. The nice thing about this system is that you get to vote just like I do. When my book comes out you don't have to buy it because i dont support AP. If that's enough of a reason for you to not buy my book, that's fine with me. Its your preference and your money.

Also, my decision in no form or fashion is a moral judgement on those who like and buy the books i don't like. People have different likes and dislikes and i like having people with different likes and dislikes. To me a person who buys an AP book because they liked the cover is no different than a person who buys the Epic Level Handbook because of the rules for higher level play. Its a personal preference just like everyone else's personal preference.

And, were i to attempt to create some sort of "boycott" on their products, I also have that right. Whenever this issue comes up, i always like to add my viewpoint to the discussion because, since this is a small industry, i hope AP will just stop making the covers i don't like so they can sell me some of their books. Other people of course chime up saying they like the covers. Again, that's their preference and im sure AP listens to them as well.

And for me, that's all they wrote.
This thread's gotten a wee bit silly...

joe b.

Aloïsius · Feb 1, 2003

jgbrowning said:
For me its not a matter of obscenity. Its a matter of what i would like to support and not support in the industry.

(ie a greater % of their profit from my purchase supports things i don't like as opposed to those i do like)

I never had any interest in AP product before reading this thread. I looked up at their catalogue to see what was so outrageous. The fact is that the ridiculous covered product are only a very small minority in their catalogue. Most of their products seems to be wargames and such. I posted a few link. So I think your logic is flawed.

(now, I personaly feel that a armored tank or a bomber is, in the absolute, a far more obscene thing than a young lady with silly clothing and uncomfortable posture. I must be a real pervert since I however do play RTS and don't buy playboy...)

Your definitions of "moving forward" and "having fun" will of course be different than mine. The nice thing about this system is that you get to vote just like I do. When my book comes out you don't have to buy it because i dont support AP. If that's enough of a reason for you to not buy my book, that's fine with me. Its your preference and your money.

This are the sort of criteria I will never use. If you publish a book I want to have, I will buy it. In fact I don't care who publish the book.

kenjib · Feb 2, 2003

Aloïsius said:
I never had any interest in AP product before reading this thread. I looked up at their catalogue to see what was so outrageous. The fact is that the ridiculous covered product are only a very small minority in their catalogue. Most of their products seems to be wargames and such. I posted a few link. So I think your logic is flawed.

...and that small minority is the d20 stuff, no? What does this say about Avalanche Press and how they view d20 versus the other stuff they do?

DwarvenBrew · Feb 2, 2003

mouseferatu said:
Let me restate my comment to the Troll Lords earlier, in more general terms.

Covers like AP's don't "offend" me per se. But they do make it highly unlikely I'll buy the book.

Why? Because I can't take the book seriously.

While you cannot judge the quality or content of a book by its cover, you can judge the attitude with which the publisher is approaching the book. The fact that Avalance feels it appropriate to put a woman in a loincloth crouching cross-legged on a book about Norse roleplaying says to me that they don't take their stuff seriously.

Mouseferatu pretty much nailed me exactly. IMO, if that's AP putting their best foot forward to catch my attention, then I'll pass.

I will say that the quality of the artwork is very high, but IMO the content of the artwork very poor.

Synicism · Feb 2, 2003

die_kluge said:
And, I felt "dirty" holding this book. The cover literally made me feel uneasy, and "unclean". Maybe it was because my wife was with me that made me feel uncomfortable. But, I have this suspicion that if I was alone, I would have tried to hide the fact that I was looking through it, using my body as a shield from prying eyes like you might do in the corner of a bookstore in the adult section.

This discussion pops up now and again, and it seems that Avalanche has put some variety into their covers. They apparently have *two* cover artists now - Lorenzo Sperlonga (who does the cheesecake art like Ragnarok, et al), and Terry Strickland (who does the non-cheesecake art like Noble Steeds, Knightly Orders, and stuff like that).

As for whether or not the art offends you -

It's just a stupid picture. At its most basic level, it has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the written material inside.

As a matter of fact, because Avalanche commissions their covers and their manuscripts totally separately, they have *absolutely* no bearing on the quality of the written material.

Avalanche is a d20 house. Its books come from freelancers. Like any d20 house, some of their stuff sucks and some of their stuff is good. If you want to find out if it's good, flip through it at the store. Or read a review from someone you trust.

Don't judge the book by its cover.

If it really offends you, put something over the cover. Or rip the cover off. Who cares?

We're adults here. We should be mature enough not to care about an issue as trivial as what is on the cover of a book. I mean, we're talking risque. Not obscene.

Bagpuss · Feb 2, 2003

Re: Re: I *almost* bought an Avalanche Press book

Synicism said:
We're adults here. We should be mature enough not to care about an issue as trivial as what is on the cover of a book. I mean, we're talking risque. Not obscene.

I think the point here is we are not all adults at least not those that will see the book. We often play at a friends house and he has two young kids, sometimes another couple have to bring their young son with them when they come to play as they can't get a babysitter.

I'm sure there are plenty on mature roleplayers in a similar situation these books would be fine for me if I was still at University playing with a bunch of young lads, but the cover is enough to stop me buying it now I have other people to consider, wife, young kids, etc.